A Bargain?

[oldgregg]

I think the point is that if they were priced a bit lower to begin with then they wouldn't have to be discounted quite so heavily at the last minute.

When people were looking around for boats to hire this year, HW weren't competitive on price. So people booked with other yards instead.

Let's say that hypothetically the boat was originally priced at a grand and it's now £600, it probably should have been on at £7-800.

But because they didn't do that, they missed out on all of the people who would have paid them £800 or whatever so that's a chunk of change on every single booking that they've missed out on by trying to be clever. And that's before you take into account all the marketing and admin costs of running the campaigns.

And the people paying £800 would still be out on the river, spending cash and using fuel. Perhaps more fuel, as they might be more seasoned boaters who tend to travel about more.

If you haven't got everything out in high season then something isn't right, and discounting destroys loyalty. Boatyards need loyalty.

[Vaughan]

24 minutes ago, oldgregg said:

If you haven't got everything out in high season then something isn't right, and discounting destroys loyalty. Boatyards need loyalty.

That should have been written on one of the tablets that Moses brought down from the mountain.

[Andrewcook]

All I hope is this Heavy Discount does not destroy things for Next year's Boat Pricing and think about Kids when they have Six to Eight weeks of Summer for deals. That would not go amiss as to putting up Boating prices during  the Kids have their half-term breaks 

[mikeyboy1966]

1 hour ago, oldgregg said:

I think the point is that if they were priced a bit lower to begin with then they wouldn't have to be discounted quite so heavily at the last minute.

When people were looking around for boats to hire this year, HW weren't competitive on price. So people booked with other yards instead.

Let's say that hypothetically the boat was originally priced at a grand and it's now £600, it probably should have been on at £7-800.

But because they didn't do that, they missed out on all of the people who would have paid them £800 or whatever so that's a chunk of change on every single booking that they've missed out on by trying to be clever. And that's before you take into account all the marketing and admin costs of running the campaigns.

And the people paying £800 would still be out on the river, spending cash and using fuel. Perhaps more fuel, as they might be more seasoned boaters who tend to travel about more.

If you haven't got everything out in high season then something isn't right, and discounting destroys loyalty. Boatyards need loyalty.

Yea but,

if the numbers quoted previously are correct and only 8 boats of 84 are available and discounted that would mean the other 76 went out at full price,

plus these 8 with a 40% discount.

I certainly don’t think HW have their strategy wrong.

if these boats had been available a week later I would have seriously considered one.(and I have my own quite nice cruiser on the gt Ouse)

I guess if the discounting continues through the rest of the season you may well be correct.

[Graham47]

Herbert Woods posted 2 hrs ago that all 7 night breaks are now fully booked for August but they still have 3 & 4 night breaks available on some boats.

[C.Ricko]

Yep, as has been said I don't discount and the fleet has some good bookings, we  do have some space later in the season but hopefully that will fill up, I don't think its fair to penalise early bookers by lowering prices and rewarding people for booking late but that's just how I would feel if someone was bragging to me on a similar boat from the same company, 

obviously early bookers are getting the pick of the boats but we have been in a  last minute  discounting scenario before and its not healthy. 

also comparing prices from yard to yard isn't generally accurate as you need to allow for start /  return  point,  appearance of boat,  reliability etc. 

I will probably launch 2024 bookings with a promotion for early bookings as we are not live yet due to parting company with our current booking agent but will be soon, obviously I will be encouraging people to book direct via our website. 

we also have another boat  "Dreamway" an Aquafibre Diamond 35'  joining the fleet for the end of August and fingers crossed the new RC45  "Fleetline" soon after. 

 

[Bikertov]

Always great to hear an opinion direct from a long standing and respected yard owner - and I will take the opportunity to wish @C.Ricko continued success and growth over the coming seasons !

[LondonRascal]

Interesting thoughts and opinions expressed on this thread by many, having just come back from a week afloat I was pleased to see the boatyards basins more devoid of their stock - but not empty or almost so as would have been the case in years past.

Recently I posted on the Broads Facebook Group with the highest number of members a question. It went something like this:

Quote

I wonder if the lack of bookings has less to do with cost (since any holiday is costly) and may it actually be that the Broads (and boating) is now entering a new era where it is just not as popular/attractive/relevant to more and more people?  People still choose to holiday, choose to spend considerable sums on so doing, but no longer seem to want to visit the Broads and holiday on a boat in the numbers they once did. I wonder what therefore could make it more attractive - or become a destination for a new type of holidaymaker, be them younger or from different backgrounds leaving aside affordability?

It got 77 replies and the majority seemed to believe it was actually all to do with cost alone - and stated the various reasons of why this was, but I think not. Someone put it simply that what has happened is a slide from the types of people who would come (and could afford to) and now cannot: 'average families'. These are the many who would have come year after year, almost growing up with boating and would often be loyal to a boatyard and book the same, of very similar class of boat year on year. As these older legacy boats were taken out of the fleets, they might move up and splash out on a newer model for one year, but could not justify the big increase in cost to keep this up - and, as costs elsewhere rose this meant less and less disposable income they had to either come afloat for a short time (3-4 night break) or scramble to try and book one of the increasingly few affordable legacy boats that remained. But as these affordable boats account for less of the overall hire boats, and some yards now no longer have anything much less than 20 years old, this meant families in this bracket were priced out. Lost for good it seems.

We've also seen the loss of another big earner - Hen and Stag parties. Indeed, the large boats they would book are also those which have seen the chop from fleets. They still come, but not in the same numbers. Some welcome this, but it all trickles down - waterside pubs would have seen these large groups as sure fire wins spending many hundreds over the bar each night and may have been worth the occasional issue for the profit made. I wonder too if the quieter times there decline has brought has been as welcomed by some fleet operators as much now as they once imagined..

New boats are increasingly large but sleep less, space and comfort with all the amenities is the way forward - well that is the stance it seems many yards have gone taken, but this does not explain it all to me. Just look who the members of this Forum is, look too at the Facebook Groups members - these are the people who are the most passionate about the Broads and boating, who actively engage and share their holidays online but also ask questions of like minded people for advice. There is within the membership a vast chunk of the population of the country missing though. What about the affluent 24-30 year old's who work in decent jobs, live in very costly apartments in our larger cities and have plenty of spare cash for holidaying. Well firstly they don't engage with Facebook to any degree  because it no longer reflects them, indeed Facebook's biggest audience is now 35 years+, no they are on Instagram, Tik-Tok, Be Real, Snap Chat etc. But they will spend a lot on visiting the Lake District, Scottish Highlands, Cornwall and so on, but why not Norfolk and the Broads?  As Van Life is a big thing for many these days, it has caused a lot of followers to engage in alternative activity holidays and adventures along the same line, being independent, free to move as you wish, and take in the natural environment so you'd think a self contained boat on the Broads would be a great draw, only it is being missed by this group - why?

There are many other people from many other backgrounds all not represented and not hiring boats - and I don't think it is because they don't want to, it is because they have no idea it is possible and what this sort of holiday has to offer. I myself have lost count of how many times I will get talking to someone about where I am off to 'the Norfolk Broads' and they have no idea about them and I'll take time and explain such where they are or that you can actually hire a boat - they find it amazing and cool, but how did they not now about it beforehand? Before I got a car, Taxi drivers from Norwich would drop me at Richardson's or Barnes Brinkcraft and be in awe of the boats "so you can rent one of these?" they would ask - this is right on their doorstep but had no concept this was possible - they  believed the rivers did not go so far or were 'only for fishermen'.

So if the Broads boatyards have lost the old faithful customer they businesses have relied on for 30 years, I think they need to be looking both closer to home and also engaging in new digital ways to entice people to replace the 'lost demographic' - people who can afford it too. Retired active people with a good pension and investments and time on their hands and seeking something different, younger friends and couples looking for a great holiday that takes them away from the pressure of life and reconnects them with nature and sustainable holidaying and tapping into groups of people from other cultures and regions - its heartening to see many more varied people in day boats - why are they not moving up to a larger boat for an actual holiday - are the boatyards bothering to engage with them and encourage such?

So there is my take on things. As far as Herbert Woods doing as they have, they always seem to do something a bit unusual - and have in the past before Covid with people here calling some of the discounts then akin to a 'fire sale'. The odd thing about Herbert Woods is they have a big fleet, and a great deal of it is ageing - indeed, unlike other fleets who have improved their stock over time, Herbert Woods have just 'kept it going' - you won't see a big re-engine program to get rid of some of the most smokey, nosy and old Perkin's and BMC's - they will just nurse them along season after season and when all is lost then replace one, and frankly few hirers would care - but when you have a tired boat externally, with mechanicals that are tired under the floor but charge an above average price then yes, they do start to care more then and anything that might go wrong can suddenly escalate to the loss of a repeat booking.  

[Broads01]

A very enlightening post, Robin, thank you and much food for thought there.

I completely get your point about people who've never visited the Broads not knowing what it's all about. The most common reaction I receive when mentioning a Broads holiday is something like "Oh, on a barge?". I guess canals and canal boats are a common site in many places and so it's a common misconception that the Broads are an extension of the canal network.

[MauriceMynah]

When my parents hired Broadlander back in 1966, if I remember correctly, it cost about £100 for the week. Now, a comparable boat would cost about £2000. A 20 fold increase. The house we had just moved into had cost £4,250. Trust me, it's worth more than £85,000 at todays prices. So in real terms, has boat hire become more expensive?

There are fewer hire craft than there used to be, and more private craft.

Whilst I accept that money may well be one of the causes of the decline, I think there are many others.

Society has changed and people want different things for their money.

The "staycation" is a rarity now and where foreign travel used to be only for the well heeled, nowadays package holidays are given away free with a pack of cornflakes.

 

[jpd]

An interesting discussion here. Following on from the points made by Robin, how did hire companies market themselves in the 60s, 70s and 80s. Newspapers and TV ads?  The ageing loyal customer base mentioned, somehow became engaged with the Broads. Many starting with holidays with parents I guess, that was my introduction back in the 80s, no idea how my Dad from East London knew about the Broads. Probably good old word of mouth, times have changed. What is the first thing people of a younger age do when seeking information, go online or social media, and that is how to reach out to them. I'm not suggesting this is a negative thing just the way it is in my opinion. If I was a hire company I would want a social influencer all over my boats, that would reach out to a younger genaration.  After a long absence from the broads I introduced my girls to boating in 2020, all three under the age of 16 at the time., they loved it and continue to do so. 

[BroadAmbition]

nowadays package holidays are given away free with a pack of cornflakes.

Hmmm, our recent trip to Rhodes was far from cheap imho and way above what I'm comfortable on spending (I got conned into it by MrsG and ones daughter) but to be fair it was all inclusive and rated five star and turned out to be value for money I suppose.

Inflation certainly has upped the cost of foreign holidays.  Some items in Rhodes were actually more expensive than UK - Diesel and petrol markedly so.  At the airport on our way home - 4 x sandwiches, 1 x soft drink and two coffees - 44 euros 

Never the less the amount we spent on that holiday would have paid my way afloat for about two years - exempt the bi-annual maintenance periods

Griff

[YnysMon]

31 minutes ago, jpd said:

no idea how my Dad from East London knew about the Broads.

Probably from the TV.

I vividly remember watching one of those holiday programmes on TV (you know, the one with Judith Chalmers) in the 1970s and being captivated by the idea of a Broads boating holiday. It was impossible of course, there’s no way my single parent Mum could or would have tried that. Besides, we had free train travel, so by mid 70s we’re starting to do holidays in places like Switzerland, Italy and Norway.

This is why Graham and I didn’t discover the Broads until around 2015. And what a grand discovery it was.

[C.Ricko]

Think its basically that after 2 years of not being able to go abroad due to restrictions or fear people can now happily jump on a plane, couple that with the unnecessary hike  in prices which the canals didn't do so much it has lead to an exodus which has possibly undone all the good fortune which the last two years imposed new customers would have embraced. 

there are still stag and hen parties, they are just on different boats, 

in days gone by the agents would take out a half page advert in the red top newspapers and paid travel agents to promote the holidays, these days its repetitive videos on social media and sponsored discount adverts which drive bookings, we were getting weekly requests to join promotions which we don't entertain, we will see what the future holds but being able to take direct bookings will help us out as long as our new agent can fill the gaps but already we are able to hold our already keen prices for next year. 

[oldgregg]

2 hours ago, BroadAmbition said:

Never the less the amount we spent on that holiday would have paid my way afloat for about two years - exempt the bi-annual maintenance periods

But then if you're doing maintenance every six months, there's quite a cost there that you have to factor in?

[BroadAmbition]

There is, normally every two years. Due April next year - again ☹️

Griff

[LondonRascal]

3 hours ago, jpd said:

If I was a hire company I would want a social influencer all over my boats, that would reach out to a younger genaration. 

The issue here is cost - if you want someone who actually has big engagement with the people you want to reach, that Influencer will charge big - with no guaranteed outcome, and it will be a one off mention. I know this sounds simple, but it is not - a boatyard is good with boats and customers, not necessarily with social media and marketing, but what works with younger people is content that is 'raw and real' - almost hidden to be an advertisement.

So if I was a larger yard, I'd be looking into launching the brand on other platforms - having a plan of short 60 second to 2 minute videos to be posted once or twice a week. I'd encourage those holidaying to film their experiences so this could be used, perhaps some of the employees have families with people of the age group the yard seeks to engage with - could they host some content? Is there a confident member of staff who can interact with others and 'behind the scenes' stuff? Give someone who has masses of followers in the camping/van life/exploration space a weekend on a boat for them to create their content but tag the yard in it - its all about spreading the message and fact this area, this activity  holiday exists and is there for these people.  The traction Tik-Tok can bring is staggering - I have seen everything from car garages to garden firms to caterers build a huge (tens of thousands) of people following and interacting with them - then those watching wanting to go to/use/experience the place and create off the back of it their own content.  But it also is very hard for an individual or business who has not done such to get it right and not look like they are trying to hard, as the moment that happens credibility and originality is lost and you loose a great deal overnight.

1 hour ago, C.Ricko said:

there are still stag and hen parties, they are just on different boats, 

 

Yes, continue to see a few - but nothing like the larger parties of the past (or the amount coming they once did) - I guess the cost of the deposits, plus speaking to the Police prior to departure from the yard at one point to tackle anti-social behaviour put a dampener on things. It did change overall which was slow but steady but just looking on You Tube at videos posted a few years back, the antics, people and boats they were on no longer are part of the Broads today.

[Vaughan]

10 hours ago, Broads01 said:

A very enlightening post, Robin, thank you and much food for thought there.

Yes indeed and thank you Robin, for your thoughts, which are very well expressed and I agree with all you say.

I think it is significant that Clive (Ricko) has said in an earlier post that they are parting company with their current agent.  I think we can all guess who that might be! 

I regret that I have not yet met Clive but I very much look forward to one day when we might!  I certainly knew his father well, as he and my father were good friends.  So I know why "Bob"  made the decision to sell Richardsons to the Rank Organisation, back in the days when there was also a big recession on the Broads.  I also remember how we all applauded when he bought it back, only a few years later, for around half of what he had sold it for!  In other words, we have known crises on the Broads ever since the War (which was probably the first one!) and we have somehow always found ways to get over them.

It is tempting to think that nowadays a travel agent does not "hit the spot" as well as the internet and social media. After all, Faircaft Loynes (NBD) is supposed to be based on just that.  Cut out the "middle-man" and book direct with us on our website.  But do they really believe that a private company's website, on its own, will generate enough marketing and business to fill a season?

Another question :

Why do we regard the Broads as a "staycation", UK - based holiday choice?  Where are all the customers from other countries of the World, who flock to Britain to see London, Edinburgh and even Shakespeare's birthplace?  Why don't they combine their visit - sometimes all the way from the States or Australia - with a week on the Broads?  Answer : because they are not being marketed.

In 1993 I joined Crown Blue Line in France and we were marketing World-wide.  We had our own brochure, which was well known in the Travel Trade as we only offered 30 boats, of the different classes, so you didn't have to wade through literally hundreds of little photos of the same boat, all owned by little independent yards and all insisting on their own brochure space!  All the same, you could hire any one of those 30 boats (450 in total) in any one of 17 bases, around France, Belgium, Holland and Italy.  So customers could come back to us every year, hire the same boat that they liked, but in a choice of 17 very different cruising areas of Europe.  At that time, we were able to prove a rate of 35% repeat custom.  We did this by using the principle overseas travel agents of the various countries.

The breakdown of our customers (from memory) was more or less like this :

Germany.    25%

Swiss.          20%

U.K.              15%

France.         10%

U.S.               15%

Others *.        15%

* The others included Australia, New Zealand, Canada and (more recently) China and Russia. We discovered later, that the main part of these "other" bookings were actually coming to us via Blakes overseas division, which we were also using as an agent.

So the French themselves only came to between 7 and 10% of the total and even those, only came in the off season when they knew the price was half as much and the weather here is lovely in late September and October.  One wonders if that is what is now happening to the "staycation" market on the Broads?

Later on, Crown Blue Line suffered an "arranged marriage" with Connoisseur and became part of the new "Le Boat" set-up, run largely by ex management from Sunsail, who casually assumed that their main customer base was the upper middle classes from Tunbridge Wells and the Shire Counties.  How wrong they have turned out to be!

And another question :

Do today's customers expect far too much out of the boat, and the holiday, than they have in the past?  I would say definitely yes.  What is more, the British have all been taught exactly how to complain, by Esther Rantzen and all her successors in the media.  If they can't get a refund of at least 15% by moaning about a water pump, they no longer feel they have enjoyed their holiday!  Call me a cynic if you like but have seen it, from week to week!

And my last question :

Do we really think that a Broads holiday is as much FUN as it used to be, in the "bad old days" of the 50s, 60s and early 70s?  Many on this forum, who now own their own boats, first came here as children with their parents, or as Sea Scouts, or as members of organised school parties from state schools all over the country.  They were able to grow up with the magic of the "playground" that the Broads could offer.  Groups of young men and women could come to Norfolk by train, probably on their only annual holiday from the place where the worked, and have FUN that they have always remembered in their later lives.

Do we really think that the Broads these days, is able to offer as much innocent FUN?

 

[vanessan]

7 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Do we really think that the Broads these days, is able to offer as much innocent FUN?

That’s a fantastic question and I’m looking forward to the answers! Meanwhile I’ll gather my own thoughts but I am a relative newbie not having started my boating life until the early 80s……..😏

[MauriceMynah]

The "fun" issue is an interesting one, which I suspect has been killed off by the very society that enjoyed it.

Risk assessment,  the litigation culture, and even big brother telling you to put on a life jacket every five minutes, are all contributory factors in the killing off, of the fun factor.

Yes, there are other factors, but the Arthur Ransome mantra...

"Better drowned than duffers, if not duffers, won't drown"

No longer carries any weight.

Personally I'd rather see a child in a dinghy without a life jacket, than one in a life jacket being told it can't go in the dinghy without a responsible adult present.  Those are two extremes I use to illustrate my point.

Fun means freedom to make one's own decisions,  to do one's own risk assessments and to push against some boundaries.  This is highly frowned upon by modern society 

Now come on, all together now...

THOU SHALT NOT HAVE FUN.

[Troyboy]

Interesting thread.

In my circle of friends I am the only one who comes to the Norfolk broads for a holiday. Whenever price is mentioned most of them think it is an expensive holiday.

You couldn't pay me to go abroad nowadays. 

[petersjoy]

1 hour ago, vanessan said:

I am a relative newbie not having started my boating life until the early 80s……..😏

Thats a bit old to start boating if i may say.

[ExSurveyor]

The idea of fun for a younger generation is at odds with what the Broads are about for some more traditional boaters.

My grandchildren love coming up to the boat, Two have just come back from 10 days in Kos but both said they would rather have extra time in Norfolk.

They all like being on the boat but also want to do paddleboarding, canoeing, river swimming nature walks and fishing.

For them, the Broads isn't just about traditional boating.

My nephew and his girlfriend had a mid week break from Brundall as 21st birthday presents, they really enjoyed it and would come back, just not for a full week.

These examples are the future of the Broads and they need to be accommodated by those of us who have had our time to shape the area to how we like it, otherwise it will become a run down and uninviting destination.

Who remembers Butlins of the 70s and 80's. They ended up having to re-invent their offering as the Hi de hi campers stopped going and went abroad. Now they offer short breaks that don't include damp wooden ex army chalets. Not for me but they do appeal to a younger generation.

 

[vanessan]

11 minutes ago, petersjoy said:

Thats a bit old to start boating if i may say.

I thought you were never too old?🙃

[grendel]

Talking of influecers,  I spotted that in a clip from her recent video lorna Jane (from lorna Jane adventures) was seen driving a blue bathtub  style boat, that intrigued me as recently she has been sitting  to become a boss tester, and part of the course was in norwich, I don't believe the video aboard the bathtub has been released yet, but it has to be the Thames or the broads, also she seems to do a lot of collaboration with  cruising the cut.