A Bargain?

[grendel]

Ah OK I found a short that shows it was the Thames, a collaboration with cruising the cut

[vanessan]

14 minutes ago, grendel said:

she has been sitting  to become a boss tester,

Does that mean bad bosses will be given the boot?

[Broads01]

2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

Do we really think that the Broads these days, is able to offer as much innocent FUN?

Absolutely yes. I get as much excitement at the prospect of going and as much fun when I'm there as I ever did.

[DAVIDH]

I don't think the Norfolk Broads holiday market is about to come tumbling down. Sure, there have been "perfect storm" factors that have depressed bookings this year - food/energy inflation, interest rate rises affecting mortgages (with 2 million households renewing in the next 12 months), rubbish weather, pricing still at lockdown levels. Much of these factors will stabalise, though I don't expect any upturn in customer sentiment in the next 12 months. 

Holidays abroad are not cheap as chips. I've been looking at a few options throughout the year, and a decent, half-board 4* hotel will cost around £1,000 per person per week. Inflation has hit the eurozone as much as it has here. The difference this year is that due to all the perfect storm reasons mentioned above, people's disposable incomes are smaller. A number of parties who would have taken a main holiday abroad and then a second break on the Broads, no longer have the spare cash for both. This is the first year I've noticed the newer, swisher boats not being let at certain peak dates. You can still get a week on a Broadsman, Monaco, or a Commander starting tomorrow. 

I've read elsewhere that Clive believes around 100 hire boats have left the market in the last few years. Many of those were the 10 to 12-berth older boats at Stalham. I agree with Robin that the stag and hen market seems to have been binned. There are other boats available to stags and hens, but these are not instead of those lost, they were always available. I just wonder if the decision to withdraw these boats was taken at a time when yard owners had the luxury of being able to pick and choose the customers they wanted, and expected that to continue beyond the Covid period? 

Yes, I agree with all the mentions of the next emerging markets for a holiday on the Broads. We are in a social media age and that seems to be the most cost-effective means of reaching new customers. There are still people chronicling their (paid for?) experiences on the Broads and then reporting them as blogs, or in the newspaper travel supplements to reach a new audience. But the Broads had an influx of just these people in 2020 and 2021 when they couldn't spend their money on a swish hotel abroad. Sadly, we didn't capitalise and many were left sorely disappointed by the facilities available to them on dry land, and the need to tie up mid-afternoon to get a mooring space outside the picture postcard 
pub location they had been sold a dream of.  

So in conclusion, I think this year (and maybe next) is going to be as tough on the Broads businesses as it will be elsewhere. If there is a decline, I suspect it will be slow and may become apparent over a number of years. But who knows, perhaps those visiting overseas this year will balk at the cost for 2024. The same pressures on disposable incomes will be there. Which way will they turn?

[oldgregg]

16 minutes ago, DAVIDH said:

 I agree with Robin that the stag and hen market seems to have been binned. There are other boats available to stags and hens, but these are not instead of those lost, they were always available. I just wonder if the decision to withdraw these boats was taken at a time when yard owners had the luxury of being able to pick and choose the customers they wanted, and expected that to continue beyond the Covid period? 

I think so. And I'm not convinced it was a smart move.

There were a lot of incidents and accidents over those couple of summers, more so than there have been for years. But those were extremely unusual years with many customers who had not been boating before and who may not go boating again.

A market does exist for larger groups of boaters who aren't any trouble and who are just looking for a 'Wetherspoons' of a boat. So basically a good cost per head, clean, tidy, reliable and with no frills and they mostly don't massively care what it looks like.

If you want a slightly larger boat with a few more berths so no-one is sleeping on a sofa and with plenty of room for luggage etc then there are now not so many options. There are some newbuilds which would tick the boxes but with a 'group of friends' type trip not everyone will be hardcore boaters and they won't want to pay £400 a head when they used to hire Acapulco for a fraction of that.

And those boaters will be eating out a lot, putting money into the local economy in many ways and keeping the pubs etc afloat. Large groups will spend a lot of money on food and beer in a pub every night, and that helps ensure those places stay open for all.

Remember the last recession when the Ferry Inn at Horning was boarded up for a summer? Let's not get ourselves back into that place.

[grendel]

2 hours ago, vanessan said:

Does that mean bad bosses will be given the boot?

BSS NOT Boss  xxcrdt autocorrect. 

[YnysMon]

I've seen a couple of YouTube travel couples do vlogs from the canals this summer. 

There's Kara and Nate (American couple), who have 3.6 million subscribers and who mix up doing things like wilderness survival challenges with luxury travel - or in this case a narrowboat.

 

The Travel Beans (British couple who now have a small baby, 301k subscribers) who have  also did a canal trip as one of their first 'travels' with their baby.

 

[Cheesey69]

Looking at things objectively, I’m afraid the shore side facilities are surely lacking. Pay great sums of cash in order to cruise for four hours and moor no where you want to be. 
That’s the biggest complaint i heard on the heading last year. 
If you know what’s what no problem but for first timers, no so

[Wussername]

1 hour ago, Cheesey69 said:

Looking at things objectively, I’m afraid the shore side facilities are surely lacking. Pay great sums of cash in order to cruise for four hours and moor no where you want to be. 
That’s the biggest complaint i heard on the heading last year. 
If you know what’s what no problem but for first timers, no so

Indeed. The boatyards should make available suitable facilities for visitors. Pleasant mooring facilities, welcoming mooring facilities. A bit of grass, BBQ facility, directions to local facilities. The large boatyards are no longer a cast off and away you go facility. They need to make a contribution, they need to diversify, contribute a little more.

May I ask one simple question, as you approach Wroxham, the centre of the broads, where do you see a small discreet sign, "welcome to Wroxham" moorings available here. You won't. I find that very sad. 

There needs to be a conversation before embracing sophisticated markereting techniques.

[Ray]

If you can't get under the bridge and don't know your way around you simply turn around and probably pass back through Horning where you also can't moor!

It's no criticism to say that today's families and youngsters need and want more than that.

Just because I prefer a quiet mooring in the evening where I can enjoy nature doesn't mean other facilities are wrong!

I do feel that the tourism aspect of The Broads is taking second place to the environmental aspect. I'm very much in favour of wildlife and habitat preservation but it needs to be balanced with modern families way of life if it is to thrive in equal measure to tourism.

Surely it can't be that difficult to fund hubs like Wroxham, Potter, GY etc to provide holiday facilities in scale to help fund the preservation of the rest of the network. Young people are among the most aware of environmental issues, give them centres of "entertainment" along the routes of special interest and they can fuel both their passions.

 

 

 

[oldgregg]

1 hour ago, Wussername said:

Indeed. The boatyards should make available suitable facilities for visitors. Pleasant mooring facilities, welcoming mooring facilities. A bit of grass, BBQ facility, directions to local facilities. The large boatyards are no longer a cast off and away you go facility. They need to make a contribution, they need to diversify, contribute a little more.

May I ask one simple question, as you approach Wroxham, the centre of the broads, where do you see a small discreet sign, "welcome to Wroxham" moorings available here. You won't. I find that very sad. 

There needs to be a conversation before embracing sophisticated markereting techniques.

I think that was the thing when the Ferry was boarded up, it was what it said about the state of the area and the industry and was a really bad look.

With the loss of Blakes / a proper Hoseasons, it does feel like everyone is doing their own thing and competing with one another. It needs to be a lot more joined up.

[MauriceMynah]

All this talk about advertising the Broads seems to be missing something. Unless I'm mistaken, wasn't the term "Broads National Park" permitted for advertising purposes,.. in fact ONLY permitted for advertising purposes.  

Maybe the BA should ask the RSPB to advertise Broads hire craft in their journal.

[Cheesey69]

I remember in the early eighties at Christmas the advert with the music “messing around on the water” advertising The Broads. The only time I can remember the Broads selling itself. 
As has been said, I work on the Essex borders and hardly anyone has heard of the Broads 

[Lulu]

33 minutes ago, Cheesey69 said:

I remember in the early eighties at Christmas the advert with the music “messing around on the water” advertising The Broads. The only time I can remember the Broads selling itself. 
As has been said, I work on the Essex borders and hardly anyone has heard of the Broads 

Happy memories

[LondonRascal]

1 hour ago, MauriceMynah said:

All this talk about advertising the Broads seems to be missing something. Unless I'm mistaken, wasn't the term "Broads National Park" permitted for advertising purposes,.. in fact ONLY permitted for advertising purposes.  

Maybe the BA should ask the RSPB to advertise Broads hire craft in their journal.

Yes it was, and to be honest, it has been used to good effect - you'd never know the area was not a bona fide National Park, and for the sort of people that this would mean something to (and visit because of the connotations of what a National Park is) is been great. But for everyone else it is just a pretty area in Norfolk..

4 hours ago, Cheesey69 said:

Looking at things objectively, I’m afraid the shore side facilities are surely lacking. Pay great sums of cash in order to cruise for four hours and moor no where you want to be. 
That’s the biggest complaint i heard on the heading last year. 
If you know what’s what no problem but for first timers, no so

Oh so true! Indeed this has been the case for years - many of the reviews left on places like Trip Advisor to the actual boat reviews on Hoseasons website itself will mention this and the lack of moorings and what lack of places there is to go as a family.  I am convinced if this was an area other than the UK it would have far more investment in shore side facilities, you know super basic things like picnic areas, toilet's and shower's, a decent place to moor up not having anxiety of if you would get a space when you arrived.  It would be joined up with various stake holders all adding their funding into the pot for the benefit of all.  What we have today is in all honesty a broken, mess constructed back when it was possible to do no bad and print money off the back of boating.  It should also not be all about the holiday maker who hires a boat - but those who own one and yet spend their holidays on the Broads (and their money here). If you have a private boat and can't get under Wroxham Bridge, well good luck in finding a mooring (even if you wish to pay) to visit the village. Over years moorings have given way to berths for yet more boats sat in Marina's to make more money for relativity few business and landowners.

[NeilB]

Just reading the above few pii oh sta and nodding in agreement.  Pop over to Facebook and the 1st post I see is the following!

Had a lovely holiday on board the fair chancellor. Couldn’t fault the service from NBD or the boat. Unfortunately though we won’t return to the broads and decided to go on a canal boat again next time due to the lack of public moorings. It seems 90% are private and spaces at public ones are few and fair between. 7 hours it took us one day looking ..ended up just mooring the last night at the boat yard as we went to potter , then Ludham bridge, ranworth , horning, salhouse and there wasn’t a single space at any of them. It’s a real shame most seem to be private. Canal boat was much better for mooring to visit towns and pubs etc. It was just too frustrating for us and spoiled the last day of our holiday, we were hungry and bored by the time we eventually got off the boat with two moaning kids 🤣🤦🏼‍♀️

[Ray]

It would be good for the BA and "partners" to read that, take it on board and plan appropriately, unfortunately no doubt the Lesser Pointy Flying Hedgehog Duck will need it's habitat protecting as a higher priority.

[Gracie]

I think, for what it's worth, the last two posts have hit the nail firmly on the head x

[LondonRascal]

1 hour ago, Ray said:

It would be good for the BA and "partners" to read that, take it on board and plan appropriately, unfortunately no doubt the Lesser Pointy Flying Hedgehog Duck will need it's habitat protecting as a higher priority.

I think you are right, but it does need a real joined up and committed approach. You must still strike the balance between nature and it's protection, but I think landowners, the Broads Authority, the local council, businesses and boatyards almost need someone to kick them into reality.  In times gone a lot of that would have come from Blakes and Hoeseaons who had great sway - but that is long gone.

Even if it was only seasonal, say between May and September, whereby temporary extended moorings were made available, and 'hubs' where extra services were (at a price) like portable showers and toilets to make out of the way moorings more accessible and enjoyable to people.

I also remain surprised at some locations - take Salhouse, who charge a fair amount for overnight moorings offer so little but could offer so much more. Imagine if, again seasonally, you'd moor at Salhouse and it be a bit of a fixture in the summer for events, like an outdoor cinema, low key music festival, entertainment, food and drink and the like. They have so many moorings both on the the Broads edge, and along the riverfront (half hourly river taxi from them to the shore for example) it could be a great thing for local catering and event organisers to have a base to work from in the peak season. But such ideas like this would no doubt stumble with planning and older people stuck in their ways not taking a fresh approach and a little risk.

I guess if you take away the boating side of things, there needs to me more than a handful of pubs to keep people entertained and coming back in future years.

[Wussername]

13 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

I think you are right, but it does need a real joined up and committed approach. You must still strike the balance between nature and it's protection, but I think landowners, the Broads Authority, the local council, businesses and boatyards almost need someone to kick them into reality.  In times gone a lot of that would have come from Blakes and Hoeseaons who had great sway - but that is long gone.

Even if it was only seasonal, say between May and September, whereby temporary extended moorings were made available, and 'hubs' where extra services were (at a price) like portable showers and toilets to make out of the way moorings more accessible and enjoyable to people.

I also remain surprised at some locations - take Salhouse, who charge a fair amount for overnight moorings offer so little but could offer so much more. Imagine if, again seasonally, you'd moor at Salhouse and it be a bit of a fixture in the summer for events, like an outdoor cinema, low key music festival, entertainment, food and drink and the like. They have so many moorings both on the the Broads edge, and along the riverfront (half hourly river taxi from them to the shore for example) it could be a great thing for local catering and event organisers to have a base to work from in the peak season. But such ideas like this would no doubt stumble with planning and older people stuck in their ways not taking a fresh approach and a little risk.

I guess if you take away the boating side of things, there needs to me more than a handful of pubs to keep people entertained and coming back in future years.

The Broads is not a theme park, it is not a fun park. It is a place for adventure and discovery. Fun can be had within this ideal but it is secondary to the Norfolk Broads experience. 

As for your Salhouse projection I cannot think of anything more abhorrent.

[ExSurveyor]

2 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

you'd moor at Salhouse and it be a bit of a fixture in the summer for events, like an outdoor cinema, low key music festival, entertainment, food and drink and the like

They have introduced most of those this year as a trial, much to the consternation of a few nay sayers who thought  it would ruin the peace of the area. Apparently it didn't.

[grendel]

I was having a similar discussion with one of my senior managers the other week, about how to engage the latest generation and instill a work ethic of going above and beyond the basics of what they are asked to do, how to get them to add the icing and cherry on top as a matter of course, rather than just stopping  when they have performed their task?

It's a problem everywhere, not just here on the broads, if it doesn't arrive at their phone as a tic token, instathingie or x(formerly twitter), then they don't take note.

[Vaughan]

10 hours ago, Ray said:

Young people are among the most aware of environmental issues, give them centres of "entertainment" along the routes of special interest and they can fuel both their passions.

But they have already been given a telephone box at Thurne, with clockwork bird noises.        

7 hours ago, Ray said:

It would be good for the BA and "partners" to read that, take it on board and plan appropriately, unfortunately no doubt the Lesser Pointy Flying Hedgehog Duck will need it's habitat protecting as a higher priority.

More seriously, I think this is where the balance between tourism and its "environment" has gone wrong.  I look back to the days when renowned naturalists such as Dr Ted Ellis, Dr Martin George and Philip Wayre all understood that the wildlife and habitat of the Broads was not at all affected by the crowds in boats and was co-existing quite happily in the marshes and fields around the rivers.  Yes there were problems of pollution (which have now largely been solved) but the tourists themselves were not disturbing the wildlife.  What is more, these men understood (and said so) that the Broads had to have a good commercial income from tourism and navigation in order to continue to exist as a wildlife habitat.

The Broads are not natural - they are Man-made and must be maintained by Man.

Nowadays it seems the environment must be protected by such as the RSPB who, as owners of increasingly large chunks of Broadland, have actually announced their intention, in their own publications, to keep the public off their closed land, in case they frighten the birds.  I remember when they complained about the noise of Brooms testing boats on the river near their Strumpshaw reserve, despite thumping great class 37 Diesel engines thundering past on the railway about every hour, right beside their land.

It is a well known fact that some of the best preserved and protected wildlife habitats in the country, are our motorway embankments.

[Vaughan]

Thinking back on the BA's lovely little telephone box, I wonder if the selection of bird noises should include the sound of an Egyptian Goose c**pping on the quay heading?  A very common Broadland bird call these days and I am sure it would be the children's favourite!

All those Greylag, Canada and Egyptian Geese that now proliferate out of all control on the north rivers, are not exactly frightened by the tourists, are they?  Nor are the swans, which come and trim your fingernails when they feed out of your hand.  Nor the Mallard duck, who tramp over your cabin top in the night.  Even the "terribly timid" and heavily protected otter will stand there and smile at you, from time to time.  They have even been seen in Richardsons wet shed, in broad daylight.  That would never have happened in Philip Wayre's day!

And yet we now have the idea being forced on us, that our "natural" environment has become so precious and fragile that we are not allowed to venture out on it any more.

Unless we want to build "affordable" housing estates all over it, of course.

[MargeandParge]

Norwich it's self has turned it's back to the River The Yacht Station is good but what an opportunity missed on the way to it. There could have been a mooring basin surrounded by bars and entertainment venues. 

Yarmouth could have a Marina on the abandoned approach maybe through a lock it would intice people to stop and I am pretty sure they would be willing to pay for these facilities as they do on coastal Marinas. It would give a mixture to holidays without destroying anything that is natural 

Kindest Regards Marge and Parge