BA campaigns against engine running

[Guest]

Happy to have a chat privately. I know you are more experienced than me............

[Broadsword]

I had a very pleasant reply from Adrian Vernon at the BA, responding to my suggestion of designated quiet moorings, where engine noise would not be permitted at all.

Apparently it has been raised before, but there is concern that by introducing such areas it might suggest noise is acceptable elsewhere. However, he is meeting with hirers and other boating bodies and has said he will raise the suggestion for discussion.

 

[LondonRascal]

Having moorings, where the running of the engine is not permitted unless to arrive or depart would be unworkable in my opinion.

Not because it would encourage noise elsewhere – but because some boats simply are designed to have their engines run to supply power to cook with – and I am not just talking about posh new ones, but the many out there with Microwave ovens.  These are not fancy, amazing new tech this is basic stuff that many use without through day to day in their homes. 

Try running a Microwave on a boat without the engine running and see how ‘pathetic’ the heating result is and how fast the inverter low voltage alarm comes on and the power is stopped. 

An example I could well imagine:  A family with a baby arrives and moors up – all is quite but the baby’s bottle and items needs to be sanitized – most baby bottles and accessories are now sanitized by using a Microwave.  You place them in a special container, add a little water and the high temperature and steam do the bacteria killing and cleaning. 

So they do as they do at home, run the engine, turn on Microwave and... ‘knock knock’ at the boat a grumpy person asks something like “Can you not read?” pointing to the sign that says not to run the engine at the moorings and then the arguments begin...

What is not fair is 9:00pm and the sound of an engine clatters to life you look at the clock and just hope it is only going to be running for ten minutes.

In the main boating season what you don’t actually get much of on the Broads is ‘peace and quiet’ it is boat after boat passing with the sound of their engines during the day on the rivers and moor at any location which is popular, Womack Water, Salhouse or Ludham Bridge as examples and you hear TV’s on, music, people laughing, shouting, BBQ’s underway etc etc. The true peace comes just before sunrise when all is still and only the fishermen are up with the ‘plop’ of their float in the water and the odd sound of a kettle whistling as it boils fills the air.

[JennyMorgan]

Robin wrote: . . . . .  'but because some boats simply are designed to have their engines run to supply power to cook with'. Well, Robin, quite simply that highlights the problem. yards producing or hiring out such boats need to go back to the drawing board. How hard is it to heat something up on a gas ring? Boats are boats, people need to adjust their ways & demands to being afloat. 

[Vaughan]

2 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

In the main boating season what you don’t actually get much of on the Broads is ‘peace and quiet’

Let's face it, that is the high season on the Broads, and always has been! It is not a "wilderness" experience, in July.

Personally I think a mooring or marina, in fairness, should only insist on "no engines" if it provides an alternative. Ready access to shore power, so that microwaves, TV and all the rest can run direct off the mains without touching the boat's batteries.

In the French Mediterranean and especially in America, you are not only forbidden to run your engine in a marina but you can't run a generator either. You do, however, have 2 shore power sockets per boat - one on 35 amp for the boat systems and one on 50 amp for the aircon.

Please Rascal, don't think I don't take you seriously. It is another question of "horses for courses". If these are the needs of modern boating, for the boating public, then more suitable moorings should be available for this.

Comes back to the BA again, doesn't it?

[vanessan]

//Please Rascal, don't think I don't take you seriously. It is another question of "horses for courses". If these are the needs of modern boating, for the boating public, then more suitable moorings should be available for this.

Comes back to the BA again, doesn't it?\\

I couldn't agree more. Trouble is, if it comes back to the BA, it comes back to our tolls which would need a huge hike to provide these moorings.

[littlesprite]

If people need to run engines between 08.00 and 20.00hrs I don't really see it being the end of the world, after all moor at somewhere like Ludham and the moving boat traffic sounds like a permanent engine running anyway, and you get the wash as well. After 20.00hrs and I do get a bit annoyed, but equally I get upset when woken at 01.00 in the morning by someone navigating at night, perfectly legal and done with common sense no problem, speed and high revs and I could kill them.

We all have to live together and that requires give and take, or do we ban anything that upsets anyone, with thought and consideration we should all manage to enjoy our time on the broads.

[Soundings]

22 minutes ago, littlesprite said:

If people need to run engines between 08.00 and 20.00hrs I don't really see it being the end of the world, after all moor at somewhere like Ludham and the moving boat traffic sounds like a permanent engine running anyway, and you get the wash as well. After 20.00hrs and I do get a bit annoyed, but equally I get upset when woken at 01.00 in the morning by someone navigating at night, perfectly legal and done with common sense no problem, speed and high revs and I could kill them.

We all have to live together and that requires give and take, or do we ban anything that upsets anyone, with thought and consideration we should all manage to enjoy our time on the broads.

So when should they stop running their engines 10pm, midnight or not at all? Surely there has to be a reasonable cut-off and 8pm works for me as it will for most I reckon, especially those with young children or those who need early rest. Mind you the  high tech nature of some boats makes running the engine almost a necessity and that needs looking at too. The Broads are heading in the wrong direction imho - boats that need to run their engines at all hours, people who support that and less and less moorings which means that those who want peace cannot get away from the crowds.

[Poppy]

Sadly Soundings this thread seems to be running along similar lines to the one on speeding, and for the same selfish reasons -

" I want to, so I shall ! "

[Soundings]

True Poppy, but it will eventually kill the Broads, at least for those who want a "traditional" boating holiday - serene, quiet, relaxing etc. etc. Yes the Broads will remain packed to the gunwales but it will be more like Norwich on a Friday night I fear :-(

[Polly]

If anything was going to kill the Broads, the 1970s would have done it. Most folks do use their commonsense.

[Guest]

To be fair to Littlesprite, he did say that he did not have a problem with engines being run between 8.00am and 8.00pm, but did get upset after that. Which doesn't seem unreasonable!

[Soundings]

That's your opinion Polly but I have to say that has not been my experience. The Broads were awful in the 70s yes but people were more accommodating and had a better sense of values and community. That is not the case now - it is all about me first, middle and last. Of course there are exceptions but those exceptions are fast becoming less frequent. Also there are far more holiday opportunities theses days so it is easy to go somewhere else.

I agree the Broads won't die but they will change - just like the nightclubs have changed Norwich (or parts of it). 

[LondonRascal]

This is 2016 people do not expect to have to lower any expectations and increasingly want more and more for less actual outlay.

If you look at small cars, any major manufacture could not bring a new model to market and not have power steering, air conditioning, a raft of airbags and safety equipment – including ABS and now just as vital to the modern driver is the tech side so inclusion of Bluetooth connected audio, to pair not only a phone for calls but music too and both Apple and Google are vying for the in car ‘computer’ race and apps that will surly follow from third party vendors - tired of a Tom Tom, download s Garmin app for the Sat-Nav.  

The same goes for boating. A new build has to keep pushing the envelope in terms of features, comfort and style.  Look at the new Haines built day boats for Ferry Marina – they are just day boats but you can bet they will hire well and in so doing make anything else seem old hat.

Even the most modern boats are pretty simple when you look at what is ‘under the skin’ – it is just the fit out and fancy additions that have come a long way.  The next step I imagine will be dynamic interiors with clever folding tables, seating and berths that adapt to the customers’ needs. 

Like this – just for boats...

Seriously though, many may not like it but the days of plentiful free moorings are fast dying out as far as I can see.  However, it is not just enough to offer moorings for a price – rightly people would want something more than a couple of wooden posts for the fee charged.

As I have said in previous threads where I covered the contentious issue of  ‘pay as you moor’ and automatic charging would come in. The benefits - shore side electric posts at each official mooring, WiFi to connect not just phones and tablets, but increasingly onboard entertainment systems like Chrome Cast or Apple TV etc bypassing the traditional need of an aerial or satellite dome for television. Water could be provided too, – likely charged additionally to the mooring fee but again through a ‘contactless’ payment method so no coin box to empty, no staff required for fee collections and once installed an ongoing source of revenue for the Broads Authority and land owners who lease their land for such moorings.

My prediction: Within the next five years I can well see all new built hire boats not having gas onboard and in the next 10 years all legacy craft being converted to make gas use, its associated safety risks, annual inspections and bottle storage and replacements a thing of the past.

[JanetAnne]

• That'll stop a lot of hot air   

[BroadScot]

15 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

bottle storage and replacements a thing of the past.

Prepare for a threatening letter from Calor Gas! Robin

[marshman]

Hi Robin - this is Norfolk i am afraid and like motor caravans, most boats are owned and run by those of a certain age!!

Whilst you may of course be right, I suspect the timescale may be nearer 20/25 years or even longer rather than the one you mention. 

There are insufficient electric points for a start and they are very expensive to put in, and in many cases electricity just isnt in sight at these moorings. At the same time, a large proportion if individuals never go near a formal mooring and to be honest I do not suppose they will.

However if you are looking for predictions, which you were not, my guess is that new hire boats will first have to fit grey water tanks - there is already one afloat!! Changing habits affect water quality and the environmental lobby would love to stop you having one or more showers a day with the consequent discharge of shower gel!!!

Showering in the morning is also a main factor in the engine running saga - come down the Ant in the early morning and the engine running for showers is very evident. Can never quite understand why you cannot have a shower whilst going along - you warm the water quicker in any case!!!

[quo vadis]

Can never quite understand why you cannot have a shower whilst going along - you warm the water quicker in any case!!!

I can see where I'm going from inside the shower and certainly can't reach the steering wheel

[Soundings]

50 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

My prediction: Within the next five years I can well see all new built hire boats not having gas onboard and in the next 10 years all legacy craft being converted to make gas use, its associated safety risks, annual inspections and bottle storage and replacements a thing of the past.

Won't happen, no way. It is not feasible. What will they use in place of gas, especially re the older boats. Will they all use leccie and plug in? If so where will all those leccie points come from, where are they going to site them, and who will pay! If they are going to bin gas they might as well bin petrol whilst at it for that can be volatile. 

Sorry Robin but it won't happen......at least not for years and years and years.

[Vaughan]

Speaking as someone actually involved in the evolution of modern safety standards of gas in boats, I can assure you there is nothing wrong with a gas system installed to CE regs, and inspected regularly by a BSS inspector.

Think always about ventilation. This is (IMHO) more important than the gas installations themselves.

Gas is still the most practical way of cooking in a boat, and probably will be for many years to come.

Modern Trumatic heaters are also very good for space heating.

Think also of Propane rather than Butane, as you can use it more easily in winter.

[JanetAnne]

9 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Speaking as someone actually involved in the evolution of modern safety standards of gas in boats, I can assure you there is nothing wrong with a gas system installed to CE regs, and inspected regularly by a BSS inspector.

Over the time we have had experience of three bss inspectors. The first failed a boat on work his own staff had completed just days earlier, the second failed us on a gas leak we didn't have even though the hard wired bilge based gas alarm also told him we didn't have it (at the subsequent retest we discovered he didn't know how to properly use the bubble tester!!!He does now... lol) and the third informed us that we far exceeded anything the bss had in mind but he had throughly enjoyed his time aboard!

I miss the naked flame approach to gas testing....  You learnt very fast back then. 

[Vaughan]

Funnily enough I am chatting on the e-mail with a friend in Thorpe who remembers Jenners - the original Jenners, by the Town House. They were a very old established Broads yard and were famous for building the first real Broads "motor cruisers" as opposed to early things which were really converted yachts without a mast. Date of this would be about 1912.

So from then, you have a centre cockpit craft, with motor under the wheelhouse floor, 2 cabins for 4 people, galley and toilet, and a folding canopy that can be lowered for bridges.

I have always believed that Broads boating holidays HAVE NOT CHANGED from that time on. Only the detail has changed. Now we have diesel engines, fridges, hot water, lots of electrics, and all the rest.

But I really believe that the holiday that is being taken on the Broads now, is no different from that which was taken in those days, before the First World War.

If you look at it in that light, maybe you are better able to enjoy it for what it is really worth?

[JanetAnne]

Remove the half a million NO MOORING signs and I'll happily agree with you young sir!

[Gracie]

We can only hire during school holidays which as you know bumps up the price of a Boat by a couple of hundred quid, we also don't hire the bling Boats, good on cost and wanting to get back to proper Boating as possible. I really do understand people wanting to get the best of a Boat they have hired, especially the posh ones and for their need to run engines at moorings SOMETIMES, to get the use from all the mod cons, but is it really that bad? The worst times for this happening is during school holidays, more people out on the rivers wanting to have the time of their lives and who can blame them. As you know from previous posts we are pretty anti-social at night and mostly wild moor but have on occasion been on public moorings and an engine has started up, (I quite like the sound of a Boat engine) if it's too late or too early a quiet and FRIENDLY word is nearly always enough, I'm with Martin (Littlesprite) we can't ban everything and us Boaters should stick together, get back to the basics and enjoy our Broads for the beautiful water ways they are

Now the times I really get annoyed is when I am partying at 1am on the roof of the Boat, music blaring, drink flowing and some idiot decides to start their engine wonders will never cease

Grace

[rightsaidfred]

On ‎02‎/‎03‎/‎2016 at 6:42 PM, Broadsword said:

I had a very pleasant reply from Adrian Vernon at the BA, responding to my suggestion of designated quiet moorings, where engine noise would not be permitted at all.

Apparently it has been raised before, but there is concern that by introducing such areas it might suggest noise is acceptable elsewhere. However, he is meeting with hirers and other boating bodies and has said he will raise the suggestion for discussion.

 

There are two such moorings at Potter Higham but not BA controlled.

Fred