Racism And The Colston Statue

[floydraser]

I think this thread has just about run it's course. Steam has been let off and there's little more to add at this time.

[Ray]

Just now, grendel said:

if it were possible I would suggest that the two of you got together, shared a pint and chatted to each other, things come across much better face to face.

 

@ Tempest 🍺🍺

[Tempest]

33 minutes ago, Ray said:

@ Tempest 🍺🍺

[MauriceMynah]

9 hours ago, floydraser said:

I think this thread has just about run it's course. Steam has been let off and there's little more to add at this time.

To a great extent I agree, but I think there's still some mileage especially on the constructive side.

I do not think myself a racist, I have never thought myself a racist, but when I look back on my earlier years, and some of the views I had back then, I can see that those views, if I expressed them today, I would be branded a bigoted racist.

HOWEVER, the views I held then were held by many. Racist jokes were the norm. Bernard Manning was liked by many and held high in the comedy circles. Society changed. It's still changing. 

This thread would not have existed had it not been for the militant side of the demonstrations.  Had the demonstrators remained peaceful and law abiding, there might have been a few posts, but not the heated debate we've just had. I think "Clap for carers" has proved that. More people clapped for the NHS than marched for BLM yet it's the BLM that has been talked about on several threads.

I think the matter can be split into two separate issues. It's not just that further change in attitude is needed, but that it's the speed of that change that is questioned.

Whilst I cannot condone the specific actions of the "rent a mob" nor can I deny that those actions have made me think. 

So, My view of the way forwards. Firstly and quite urgent is to have a quick audit of our statues (and other memorial edifices) to weigh up the reasons for those statues being there. This might not sound important, but in fact it is. It's very important.

I use Nelson's Trafalgar square as an example on the "remain" side. That statue does not celebrate "White supremacy" but "British Naval supremacy" in a time of war. This is not a racist statue, and if people find it offensive (apart from the French) it is those people who need educating as to what it means.

I do not have an example for a "remove" statue, but that is purely owing to lack of knowledge on my part. I have no doubt they do exist.

This country is what it is. it is a result of it's history, not in spite of it. That needs to be held in mind by the reformists (lets call them that for now) There may well be those who fear the "compromise too far" I am trying hard not to be one of them, but as long as there are compromises on BOTH sides, genuine progress is inevitable.

[grendel]

I think my daughter has summed it up quite succinctly, she said ,

Quote

if you are not one of the people directly affected, but are just morally outraged about the situation, then just shut up and listen to those people who are directly affected!

because it is only by listening to them that we can find out what they want, not our interpretation of what they need, what they want.

and I think that looking back at this thread, a lot of the comment has fallen into that category (my own included) of forming our own interpretation of what they need, not that of listening to what they are asking for.

[batrabill]

26 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

To a great extent I agree, but I think there's still some mileage especially on the constructive side.

I do not think myself a racist, I have never thought myself a racist, but when I look back on my earlier years, and some of the views I had back then, I can see that those views, if I expressed them today, I would be branded a bigoted racist.

HOWEVER, the views I held then were held by many. Racist jokes were the norm. Bernard Manning was liked by many and held high in the comedy circles. Society changed. It's still changing. 

This thread would not have existed had it not been for the militant side of the demonstrations.  Had the demonstrators remained peaceful and law abiding, there might have been a few posts, but not the heated debate we've just had. I think "Clap for carers" has proved that. More people clapped for the NHS than marched for BLM yet it's the BLM that has been talked about on several threads.

I think the matter can be split into two separate issues. It's not just that further change in attitude is needed, but that it's the speed of that change that is questioned.

Whilst I cannot condone the specific actions of the "rent a mob" nor can I deny that those actions have made me think. 

So, My view of the way forwards. Firstly and quite urgent is to have a quick audit of our statues (and other memorial edifices) to weigh up the reasons for those statues being there. This might not sound important, but in fact it is. It's very important.

I use Nelson's Trafalgar square as an example on the "remain" side. That statue does not celebrate "White supremacy" but "British Naval supremacy" in a time of war. This is not a racist statue, and if people find it offensive (apart from the French) it is those people who need educating as to what it means.

I do not have an example for a "remove" statue, but that is purely owing to lack of knowledge on my part. I have no doubt they do exist.

This country is what it is. it is a result of it's history, not in spite of it. That needs to be held in mind by the reformists (lets call them that for now) There may well be those who fear the "compromise too far" I am trying hard not to be one of them, but as long as there are compromises on BOTH sides, genuine progress is inevitable.

Spot on MM. 
 

[Poppy]

I have had time to reflect on the issue. Rather than removing statues 'for safe keeping, perhaps they should remain, however front each one with a large,bold information board clearly detailing why the said individual was an a***hole .

Surely nobody could reasonably object, could they ? Rhetorical question. Of course they would - even on here 

[Tempest]

If anyone wants to check whether a statue, person or monument near them is being targeted by the movement to be torn down, they have kindly provided an interactive map

https://www.toppletheracists.org/

Sent from the Norfolk Broads Network mobile app

[Paul]

That's very useful Tempest, thank you. I have added the statue of Ramjet, in Much Whinging In The Marsh for his tyrannical abuse of and discrimination against internet forum moderators.

[Paul]

On second thoughts I'm going to add one of our largest monuments, Offa's Dyke, which as we all know glorifies the 8th century tyrannical King of Mercia who tried (largely unsuccessfully if the dubious historical records of this era are to be believed) to subjugate the Welsh. 

Filling that in should keep these morons busy for a while. 

[TheQ]

The percentage of Slaves and serfs  in the Doomsday book is around 10percent, with the many years since then we are all decendants of slave and of Slave owners..

[Paladin]

52 minutes ago, Tempest said:

If anyone wants to check whether a statue, person or monument near them is being targeted by the movement to be torn down, they have kindly provided an interactive map

https://www.toppletheracists.org/
 

 

41 minutes ago, Paul said:

That's very useful Tempest, thank you. I have added the statue of Ramjet, in Much Whinging In The Marsh for his tyrannical abuse of and discrimination against internet forum moderators.

Sorry to spoil your fun but:

"Fill in this form with the details of your item to add it to our map. Submissions will be moderated by the organisers."

Moderated or censored? You decide.

[Vaughan]

30 minutes ago, Paul said:

On second thoughts I'm going to add one of our largest monuments, Offa's Dyke, which as we all know glorifies the 8th century tyrannical King of Mercia who tried (largely unsuccessfully if the dubious historical records of this era are to be believed) to subjugate the Welsh. 

What about Hadrian's Wall, built by the Romans to try and control the Hill Tribes.

On second thoughts, after Brexit we might need to keep that . . . . 

[MauriceMynah]

It would seem that Nelson is a target because he had pro slavery views and a slave trader as a close friend. Sorry but I don't see those as sufficient grounds to attack his statues wherever they are. 

The small amount of Tempests link that I have read so far gives me a distinct that he is attacking the right wing rather than racism, and that colour prejudice is nothing more than a convenient cause to be used at his pleasure. Just my take on it. I shall read more when time allows.

[RumPunch]

This is going to get very VERY messy. My earlier comment re ex Forces guarding war memorials etc seemed reasonable. It now appears that an element of professional hooligans who follow the football circuit ( and are presumably bored during COVID ) have now latched onto it and will also be there. These are the extreme right wing element - riots loom I feel.

 

 

[grendel]

MM I dont think that reflects tempests views (he may correct me if I am wrong)  i think he just posted it for information. having reviewed some of the statues near me the excuses seem tenuous at best - for example one at broadstairs dedicated to a leader of a black and white minstrels group for bringing joy and cheer to everyone, purely because he appeared in blackface -that was an entertainment thing of the time, maybe a reason to allow the council to retire the statue somewhere, but surely not a reason enough to topple it by force.

It does beg the question what councils will do with all of these monuments they will be removing, retired to a museum, what if they dont have suitable museum space.

 

[Vaughan]

4 minutes ago, RumPunch said:

riots loom I feel.

So do I.  I guess this weekend will tell us more about law and order on our streets.  I very much doubt that the boarding up of the Centotaph in Whitehall will be tolerated by veterans' associations for too long.

I am feeling rather glad that I am no longer a special constable, in these fearful times for civil peace.  I used to think having to patrol home games at Carrow Road in Norwich was a bit stressful.  Little did I know!

 

[Paladin]

32 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

The small amount of Tempests link that I have read so far gives me a distinct that he is attacking the right wing rather than racism, and that colour prejudice is nothing more than a convenient cause to be used at his pleasure. Just my take on it. I shall read more when time allows.

I have tried to stay out of this discussion, but I must confess I really don't understand what you are saying, MM. How can the content of the link be attributed to Tempest? If you look around the Topple the Racists site you'll find that it is closely associated with the Stop Trump organisation - look at the list of signatories to the letter they wrote - hard-left, Corbynists and Marxists, in the most part. Remind me of the Left's record on racism under Mr Corbyn.

Before the mods jump in, I'm not trying to politicise the discussion, just trying to point out that there are many 'protesters' who are motivated more by their hard-left politics than by any sense of injustice to minority groups.

[trambo]

53 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

What about Hadrian's Wall, built by the Romans to try and control the Hill Tribes.

On second thoughts, after Brexit we might need to keep that . . . . 

You do realise you may be dismantled and put at the back of a museum for saying that?

Fred

[Tempest]

Certainly not my views as you say Grendel and I did indeed post it for information as we Broads lovers come from far and wide and members of this forum may be interested in local statues and monuments under the scope of the group which also appears to dislike Donald Trump...(I join them in that opinion!)

MM I dont think that reflects tempests views (he may correct me if I am wrong)  i think he just posted it for information. having reviewed some of the statues near me the excuses seem tenuous at best - for example one at broadstairs dedicated to a leader of a black and white minstrels group for bringing joy and cheer to everyone, purely because he appeared in blackface -that was an entertainment thing of the time, maybe a reason to allow the council to retire the statue somewhere, but surely not a reason enough to topple it by force.
It does beg the question what councils will do with all of these monuments they will be removing, retired to a museum, what if they dont have suitable museum space.
 

Sent from the Norfolk Broads Network mobile app

[JennyMorgan]

The church at Burgh St Peter contains Roman brick and stonework, will that now be dismantled?

Burgh Castle itself was a Roman garrison, presumably built with slave labour, will that now be demolished?

Gt Yarmouth has a monument dedicated to Nelson, will that now be flattened?

Will Churchill car insurance have to change its name?

The whole who-ha has now descended into farce. I have no argument with the original intent of BLM but the movement has unfortunately been hijacked. No one can unto history.

As for new statues in Norfolk, perhaps Joyce Lambert? 

[Poppy]

Might appeal to some of our more 'far flung' members

[MotorBoater]

I don't see any objections to explanatory boards explaining who people are, and what they did, so long as the said boards are authored by genuinely independent historians and not some Wally (Or group of them) with an axe to grind.

They should be there to inform, not preach.

 

As far as new statues go, I suggest Grendel with his arms wrapped around Broad Ambition. 

[grendel]

please though, not in the grecian style

[MauriceMynah]

6 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

It would seem that Nelson is a target because he had pro slavery views and a slave trader as a close friend. Sorry but I don't see those as sufficient grounds to attack his statues wherever they are. 

The small amount of Tempests link that I have read so far gives me a distinct that he is attacking the right wing rather than racism, and that colour prejudice is nothing more than a convenient cause to be used at his pleasure. Just my take on it. I shall read more when time allows.

Never let it be said that if I get it wrong I don't apologise. I have been away from the computer for most of today and have only just read the replies to my post. Tempest, I apologise unreservedly. It was very poor writing on my part.

I never intended to comment on your politics , my comment was aimed at the person who wrote the material to which you gave the link. It is he  (I am assuming it to be a "he") who I think is using racism as a tool of convenience. It was when I read his views on South Repps I formed that view.

Tempest my friend, I owe you a beer or six.