Another Incident At Grt Yarmouth I'm Afraid.

[Meantime]

2 minutes ago, DAVIDH said:

All it needs for the status quo to resume is 1. A vaccine, 2.  One or two wet summers. 3. Deeply discounted airfares, such as immediately after the September 11th terrorist attack. Then you won't see most of the the new UK staycationers for dust. 

I guess, but I don't think it will be that easy. BA have scrapped their 747's and not replaced them yet. Once the airline industry starts to properly contract, which it will the longer this goes on for, then it cannot be rebuilt over night. With a vaccine, the desire to go abroad again will return, but the infrastructure to support it will take significantly longer to get back up to speed.

The chancellor has admitted that some sections of the economy will see a permanent change. I suspect the overseas and airline industry won't just bounce straight back if demand suddenly goes up due to a vaccine.

[Wussername]

8 minutes ago, marshman said:

Any BA initiative will likely be window dressing as you would expect - well thats my guess!!

I think that your guess may be wrong in the light of current events. Expect the unexpected.

[Meantime]

28 minutes ago, marshman said:

Any BA initiative will likely be window dressing as you would expect - well thats my guess!!

2.3. While the existing Code is voluntary, the revised Code is intended to be adopted as mandatory where the licensing authorities have the power to do so.

This was taken from the navigation committee 3rd September in relation to the proposed changes to the hire boat code which it is anticipated will be implemented as a condition of licensing by navigation authorities by 2022.

I asked the following yesterday;

"Which got me thinking is there any kind of formalised training or certification for those doing the handovers? If not, should there be? Is the competency of the person doing the handover evaluated from time to time? Is the name of the person doing the handover recorded against the customer being inducted? When incidents are recorded however minor or major, do the BA compile stats that correlate back to the yard who hired the boat, or perhaps to the person who did the induction? This is not a witch hunt, but if a possible area of weakness could be identified, it could be addressed."

Those questions were never answered but that may well be the post that led to some of the accusations towards me, however it is interesting to read the following in the revised code,

The handover process is an essential element of safety management. It is important that an audit trail of its delivery is maintained. This may include: − Booking terms and conditions − Booking confirmation − Customer log sheet. The record of when the hirer and his party arrived and departed, party member names, delivery of handover. − Boat acceptance certificate. A record of the handover and the hirers’ and party leader’s written acceptance of it. Incident reports and records of any other customer feedback. 3.3.7 Audit In view of the importance of the handover process, hire operators are strongly recommended to periodically have their handover arrangements independently audited . Licensing and/or certifying authorities can reserve the right to carry out sample audits; having an independent audit available is likely to satisfy such a requirement.

[SwanR]

 

41 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

Which got me thinking is there any kind of formalised training or certification for those doing the handovers? If not, should there be? Is the competency of the person doing the handover evaluated from time to time?

I do think that's a good point.

I always ask for whoever is doing our handover to run through the controls of the boat as a refresher. But we have only had actual trial runs on our first two hires back in 2012 and 2013, one on the south and one on the north. Since then the yards we've been with have been happy to sign off on a minimal handover and we've been happy to take that as we've mostly hired boats of similar designs to what we've had before. But I always ask questions.

The handover we had on the first dayboat we hired was sadly lacking in anything useful, possibly because we said that we had hired holiday cruisers before. But we definitely knew more about the rivers than the chap doing the handover did.

To get a true picture of how successful or well received they are now, you would really need to ask a few first time hirers. I do agree that the competency of the person doing the handover is critical. Probably all the yards are sending out boats of varying ages and designs. I don't for one minute mean to insinuate that any hireyards don't take their responsibilities seriously, but I'm sure we all know people who find shortcuts to their job in all walks of life.

[Vaughan]

41 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

Those questions were never answered but that may well be the post that led to some of the accusations towards me,

They were answered, by me, with one word yes, but you reported that, so my answer was removed.

 

42 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

This may include: − Booking terms and conditions − Booking confirmation − Customer log sheet. The record of when the hirer and his party arrived and departed, party member names, delivery of handover. − Boat acceptance certificate. A record of the handover and the hirers’ and party leader’s written acceptance of it. Incident reports and records of any other customer feedback.

Again the answer is Yes. All this has been in place for donkeys' years.

 

44 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

hire operators are strongly recommended to periodically have their handover arrangements independently audited .

By who?

You, maybe?

[Meantime]

1 minute ago, SwanR said:

 

I do think that's a good point.

I always ask for whoever is doing our handover to run through the controls of the boat as a refresher. But we have only had actual trial runs on our first two hires back in 2012 and 2013, one on the south and one on the north. Since then the yards we've been with have been happy to sign off on a minimal handover and we've been happy to take that as we've mostly hired boats of similar designs to what we've had before. But I always ask questions.

The handover we had on the first dayboat we hired was sadly lacking in anything useful, possibly because we said that we had hired holiday cruisers before. But we definitely knew more about the rivers than the chap doing the handover did.

To get a true picture of how successful or well received they are now, you would really need to ask a few first time hirers. I do agree that the competency of the person doing the handover is critical. Probably all the yards are sending out boats of varying ages and designs. I don't for one minute mean to insinuate that any hireyards don't take their responsibilities seriously, but I'm sure we all know people who find shortcuts to their job in all walks of life.

I found this bit in the revised code which makes interesting reading;

Throughout the handover process, the person giving the instruction should take account of any qualifications (for example, RYA qualifications, pre completed competency tests) or previous experience professed by the party leader(s), however this should only be recognised as an opportunity to accelerate the briefing, not dispense with it.

The full proposed code is available here

https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0024/342087/Hire-boat-code-draft-version.pdf

[Meantime]

9 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

9 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

  48 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

hire operators are strongly recommended to periodically have their handover arrangements independently audited .

By who?

You, maybe?

OK I will assume that is an honest straight forward question and will answer it as such.

Put simply no. I do not live in Broadland yet, that may well happen in the near future. My career is not in auditing and I would not be interested in auditing hire yards.

[DAVIDH]

1 hour ago, EastCoastIPA said:

I guess, but I don't think it will be that easy. BA have scrapped their 747's and not replaced them yet. Once the airline industry starts to properly contract, which it will the longer this goes on for, then it cannot be rebuilt over night. With a vaccine, the desire to go abroad again will return, but the infrastructure to support it will take significantly longer to get back up to speed.

That's a fair point. However, the aircraft are out there - theyre just stored at the moment. At the right time, the airlines will lease aircraft currently standing around, and create demand by, as I said earlier, dumping low cost seats to get people travelling again. After 9/11, everyone was terrified of flying. It was the low cost airlines (which BA is not) that "persuaded" people to fly again with bargain airfares. These are amazing images of just some of the aircraft currently in storage around the world:
 

[floydraser]

Just for a change something close to the original subject of this thread:

Over on the thread about Breydon being closed due to weather coditions they are observing what looks like first timers struggling in the rough conditions on the rivers and in the yards. It occurred to me that no amount of training can prepare the newbie for a gale.

[ranworthbreeze]

14 minutes ago, floydraser said:

Just for a change something close to the original subject of this thread:

Over on the thread about Breydon being closed due to weather coditions they are observing what looks like first timers struggling in the rough conditions on the rivers and in the yards. It occurred to me that no amount of training can prepare the newbie for a gale.

No doubt not only fist timers, in these conditions high wind speed and choppy rivers all you can do is find a safe haven and wait it out.

 

[JennyMorgan]

On 25/09/2020 at 13:25, EastCoastIPA said:

I'm not sure, but listening to The Broads Authority meeting this morning and in particular to John Packman speaking it has been recognised that this season in particular there has been a shift in behavior  for whatever reason and a number of areas need to be addressed.

Unfortunately I cannot seem to find a recording of the meeting, it looks like you can only listen in at the time it is live, so the rest is based upon my memory of the meeting. 

Issues to be looked at include;

Better warning signage on the approach to Yarmouth.

Design of hire boats.

Hire boat hand over procedures.

Large single sex parties on boats.

Alcohol on boats.

General increase in aggression from private and hire boaters.

More rangers to ensure smaller craft such as paddle boarders are tolled and given education.

Wearing of lifejackets.

In short the member responsible for the boating safety audit report said that things had improved slightly for the period the report covered, which is the year up to March 2020, but that things had got significantly worse this year and will be reflected in the next report which will cover April 2020 up to March 2021. John stated that for a number of reason the Authority had a very busy year ahead, and that workload will be increased dramatically by looking into the issues raised above.

Thanks to East Coast IPA for the above. Most of these issue are, in my opinion, best left to the boatyards themselves, after all they have a great deal more experience than the BA's executive and a great deal more than a number of the BA members themselves. Signage at Gt Yarmouth, for example, is a BA issue but surely not boat design, that really is a yard issue.

One of the above issues really does worry me though, that being the 'general increase in aggression from private and hire boaters'. I for one am glad that it is to be discussed and it will be interesting to read Dr Packman's response to this issue. Will he have both the wisdom and the courage to acknowledge his part in this sad state of affairs? Do any of you remember Anglia Afloat? One of its editorial comments concerned the regrettable loss of trust between 'the little people' and The Broads Authority.

I suspect that Vaughan will have similar feelings to myself in regard to the historic relationship with the River Commissioners, the predecessors of today's Navigation Rangers. At one time the relationship worked well, the trust and mutual respect was absolutely watertight, not so today.  Who's fault is this? The trust has to be regained, for the sake of the Broads. We were all in it together, not so today. 

[vanessan]

2 hours ago, EastCoastIPA said:

BA have scrapped their 747's and not replaced them yet.

So that’s where our tolls money goes! 

[vanessan]

8 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

One of the above issues really does worry me though, that being the 'general increase in aggression from private and hire boaters'.

How is this claim substantiated? Is it just observation on the part of the rangers or what?

[Meantime]

I honestly cannot remember how that was substantiated, and my memory is a little hazy, but I think there was mention of it being more in relation to moorings, but please don't take that as gospel.

[grendel]

4 hours ago, EastCoastIPA said:

Grendels quote says 

2 hours ago, RealWindmill said

That post cannot be seen in it's entirety, only the piece that has been quoted.

it was visible when i quoted it, i have been out all day looking after my aged parents from shortly after my post. i have just got home and am trying to catch up to the thread. if the post was hidden, my reply quoting it should also have been hidden.

[JennyMorgan]

It appears that the comments were made by Dr Packman although I stand to be corrected. What gave ride to his observation I can only guess.

[Meantime]

1 hour ago, floydraser said:

Just for a change something close to the original subject of this thread:

Over on the thread about Breydon being closed due to weather coditions they are observing what looks like first timers struggling in the rough conditions on the rivers and in the yards. It occurred to me that no amount of training can prepare the newbie for a gale.

One of the members James Knight at yesterday's Broads Authority meeting made mention of the fact that despite popular belief hire boats hadn't really got that much larger as in longer, there have always been long hire boats around, but that they had got taller leading to the impression of much larger boats. I did think at the time he was making that distinction, that is the part a lot of hirers will struggle with in high winds, the windage on the side and trying to arrive or leave a mooring with that much windage.

I know that when it is really windy I put my roof down and the windscreen down to reduce windage when coming in to stern moor back at my home mooring which can be a little tight, especially when a good South Westerly is blowing.

[Cheesey69]

Folks, do we bare in mind The Broads public image?

what I mean is, how much public money does the broads get?

with budgets getting tighter, how well does the broads complete with the other parks?

got to keep a friendly face, accessible to joe public and not to disappear up our own bilge pump. 
That’s why I think it’s important to keep the hirers happy to what is seen as an exclusive pastime 

[Wussername]

44 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

One of the members James Knight at yesterday's Broads Authority meeting made mention of the fact that despite popular belief hire boats hadn't really got that much larger as in longer, there have always been long hire boats around, but that they had got taller leading to the impression of much larger boats. I did think at the time he was making that distinction, that is the part a lot of hirers will struggle with in high winds, the windage on the side and trying to arrive or leave a mooring with that much windage.

I know that when it is really windy I put my roof down and the windscreen down to reduce windage when coming in to stern moor back at my home mooring which can be a little tight, especially when a good South Westerly is blowing.

I do feel that in some instances that there is an over reliance on the bow thruster. It does have limitations. Unfortunately some trial runs do not take this into account and without this understanding some struggle during the mooring process.

Andrew

[RealWindmill]

Good thread, innit - bet you didn't expect this to run like this when you started it Mr Wussername.

 

One question springs to mind which I think might be interesting exploring ( groan - here we go again ).

All vessels in the world including Merchant ships, Military ships, large pleasure yachts and so on have onboard an experienced Master Mariner in sole command of all aspects of it's life and role at sea. When this ship arrives to enter any foreign port or to negotiate any navigationally tricky waterway it is normal for the Master to take onboard a recognised local pilot. in most places this is normally compulsory. The reason is obvious - the Pilot who is often an extremely experienced Master Mariner himself has first hand knowledge of the waters and nav requirements, buoyage arrangements etc of his local patch.

Now our Master ( in command of all he surveys, one step below God and all that ) is still in sole command of his vessel. The Pilot is only there in an advisory capacity and our Master can override him at any time, but woe betide the Master if he didn't follow the Pilot's advice.  In the event of an incident such as collision or grounding the investigating board (MIB) would be down on the Master like a ton of bricks, and he probably wouldn't be a Master Mariner for much longer. So the Pilot may be the local expert but not In Command.

Now, and I think you can see where this is going, 

The Broads are tidal waters and are subject to the BA's version of the ColRegs and buoyage rules. 

Mister first time Hirer gets on his boat, He is Master of that boat, he is in charge of all his actions and his crew and their safety. trouble is he's never been on a boat before, doesn't realise it steers from the back end, doesn't realise it won't respond to the wheel when going backwards, hasn't got a clue about tides or propwalk or springing off a windward quayside. You can tell him that info at h/o or on a video which he may or may not absorb.

Now put a Charter Skipper ( lets call him a Pilot ) onboard for a few days or the whole duration of his hire and suddenly there is one competent and happy and, most importantly, safe new recruit to the boating world. Safer for all the rest of us too and our boats, and for the Rescue services.

He is still Master of his hireboat, the Pilot is still only advisory. Mister hirer can still override him at any time just as our Sea Captain . Mr Hirer is still in control of all aspects of his holiday.

Is that not a win - win situation. ? or have I not thought it through enough .

[Meantime]

25 minutes ago, Wussername said:

I do feel that in some instances that there is an over reliance on the bow thruster. It does have limitations. Unfortunately some trial runs do not take this into account and without this understanding some struggle during the mooring process.

Andrew

In  a few cases I have seen them used instead of, not as an aid to steering. Thing is they tend to overheat with prolonged usage.

[Vaughan]

3 hours ago, EastCoastIPA said:

3 hours ago, Vaughan said:

3 hours ago, Vaughan said:

  48 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

hire operators are strongly recommended to periodically have their handover arrangements independently audited .

By who?

You, maybe?

Expand  

OK I will assume that is an honest straight forward question and will answer it as such.

Put simply no. I do not live in Broadland yet, that may well happen in the near future. My career is not in auditing and I would not be interested in auditing hire yards.

This proves that at least two of my posts in the last three hours have been hidden, when none of them broke the TOS in any way and the posts to which I was replying are still there.

This shows a preferential bias which I do not accept.

Please explain to me why I am being censored, in such an important debate.

[floydraser]

31 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Now put a Charter Skipper ( lets call him a Pilot ) onboard for a few days or the whole duration of his hire and suddenly there is one competent and happy and, most importantly, safe new recruit to the boating world. Safer for all the rest of us too and our boats, and for the Rescue services.

He is still Master of his hireboat, the Pilot is still only advisory. Mister hirer can still override him at any time just as our Sea Captain . Mr Hirer is still in control of all aspects of his holiday.

Is that not a win - win situation. ? or have I not thought it through enough .

Yes but before you get accused of trying to lay down the law, insulting hire companies and disrespecting people's experience (you're clearly not but you know what I mean?), I think it would be best introduced voluntarily and hopefully it would become a preferred option.

[Wussername]

It is interesting to read of the interaction between the master, helm, skipper, pilot.

Communication on a boat is imperative to a safe voyage. On a racing sailing cruiser expect to be shouted at, sworn at, encouraged, humiliated if things go wrong.

On a hire boat it is not so extreme. But you must pay attention to your designated helm.

It is his responsibility to communicate.

Prepare the mooring lines.

Tell the crew why you are turning the boat into the flow of the river

When you intend to mananouver the boat.

Secure the bow rope first and then the stern

When to get off, when it is safe to get off.

Do not jump.

In brief the helm, the skipper must be aware of his responsibilities and be able to communicate with his crew. And the crew must be prepared to listen and conform.

The above is a brief summary of his obligations but not all.

Such an understanding may contribute in some way towards a discussion towards our commitment to identifying and reducing the frequency of incidents.

Old Wussername

Andrew

 

 

[Poppy]

31 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

In  a few cases I have seen them used instead of, not as an aid to steering. Thing is they tend to overheat with prolonged usage.

Frequently seen them used this way.    How to use them is probably in that book that so many don't bother to read.