***** F1 Spoiler *****

[ExSurveyor]

The problem is what to do if Mercedes manage to eventually over turn the Race Directors decision in a few months time.

To strip Max of the title he won under the race directors ruling would be as unfair as it would be to deny Lewis the title.

What a mess they have created.

Who wants to offer odds on a new race director and set up next year.

[Chelsea14Ian]

Fo sure this season has been much closer then many in the last few years.That said,I think the rules should looked at before next season.More clarity, perhaps go back to basics. However Mercedes and Lewis made mistakes this season,that needs sorting out.Will Lewis come back.YES,for me one of the greatest  drivers ever.Will he get number eight YES.Roll on next year.

[OldBerkshireBoy]

Rumour has it that Masi is a clone and under the contol of Netflix. 

[ScrumpyCheddar]

38 minutes ago, Paul said:

Sorry scrumpy but your assessment of the pit strategy is

My Assessment is not wrong at all ... If you replay the race you will hear Lewis ask to come in on a couple of occasions... They told him to stay out..!! So that’s there Pit strategy they Goofed up.. So that’s Clarified that.. 

If you replay the race again it will answer a lot of questions... Especially the corner incident.. if you watch Max he actually had the race line.. Lewis went wide and so called slowed up to let Max catch up what never happened..  With No action Taken...

[Mouldy]

13 minutes ago, OldBerkshireBoy said:

Rumour has it that Masi is a clone and under the contol of Netflix. 

That’s not what I’d call Masi.  Utterly incompetent.  I wonder if his pockets were checked for little brown envelopes with Whingey Spice’s handwriting on them.

[Bikertov]

Not long finished watching the race on catchup  

OMG - what a controversial way to decide a championship.

Gutted for Hamilton, and a sad day for the sport that it was down to decisions of the stewards and race controller  

[scaniaman]

The Mercedes pit should have followed the Griff tile van and changed the tyres! 

[Paul]

1 minute ago, ScrumpyCheddar said:

If you replay the race you will hear Lewis ask to come in on a couple of occasions...

and hear his race director advise why it was not a good idea, and explain this more fully afterwards. It often happens that a driver wants to stop, or sometimes not want to stop when instructed but the driver does not have access to the full tactical picture, gaps, traffic etc. The pit wall will make the best decision they can given far more data than the driver has. Mercedes have not always got the tactics right this season but today they were spot on.

Sadly your assessment of the turn six incident is also flawed. 

12 minutes ago, ScrumpyCheddar said:

If you replay the race again it will answer a lot of questions... Especially the corner incident.. if you watch Max he actually had the race line..

actually, no he didn't. At no point around that corner was either driver on the racing line but Hamilton was clearly closer to it. The evidence is here if you would like to look at it properly.

The first image shows the entry to the corner with Hamilton clearly ahead. The racing line can be seen as a slightly lighter line on the track about two cars width outside of Hamilton who is moving across to defend the inside line. Verstappen is making a perfectly valid attempt to overtake on the inside. 

Image 2 show the cars on the apex, Hamilton has made the corner, he is turning it quite normally having left racing room on the apex for Verstappen who has not made the corner, you will see he has out braked himself and still heading straight on. I have zoomed this in to help you. 

Image three shows the result of Verstappen's error. Hamilton has had to turn out of the corner to avoid contact with the car inside him which has missed the corner. 

The final image shows the result of Verstappen's mistake, he just manages to maintain the track himself but has forced Hamilton off track on to the paint. A driver is required by the regulations to leave a car's width at all times until he has fully completed the overtake, clearly here Verstappen has not done so, more likely simply because he can't rather than a deliberate attempt to force Hamilton off. As Hamilton led prior to the incident then they were allowed to continue. Had Hamilton not managed to retain the lead then almost certainly Verstappen would have been penalized for forcing an opponent off track. 

Hopefully that has put you right on the incident. 

 

 

[floydraser]

Good for the sport to have two such closely matched teams and drivers, but very bad when the racing is overshadowed by controversy. This year's championship would have been tainted with controversy whoever won. Very bad for the sport. 

I won't be watching Sky's live coverage again. Mainly because I'm not 5 years old anymore. Talk about ramping up the drama! I reckon Ted Kravitz could sound as if he's about to blow a gasket while watching an egg boil. At one point he said, "To quote the great Murray Walker..." Yes Ted, but just try to remember you are NOT him.

[Bikertov]

I've really enjoyed the Channel 4 coverage this season, and its been in HD

Mostly have had to watch the highlights a few hours delayed, but that is no big deal for me  

[ScrumpyCheddar]

5 hours ago, Paul said:

and hear his race director advise why it was not a good idea, and explain this more fully afterwards. It often happens that a driver wants to stop, or sometimes not want to stop when instructed but the driver does not have access to the full tactical picture, gaps, traffic etc. The pit wall will make the best decision they can given far more data than the driver has. Mercedes have not always got the tactics right this season but today they were spot on.

Sadly your assessment of the turn six incident is also flawed. 

actually, no he didn't. At no point around that corner was either driver on the racing line but Hamilton was clearly closer to it. The evidence is here if you would like to look at it properly.

The first image shows the entry to the corner with Hamilton clearly ahead. The racing line can be seen as a slightly lighter line on the track about two cars width outside of Hamilton who is moving across to defend the inside line. Verstappen is making a perfectly valid attempt to overtake on the inside. 

Image 2 show the cars on the apex, Hamilton has made the corner, he is turning it quite normally having left racing room on the apex for Verstappen who has not made the corner, you will see he has out braked himself and still heading straight on. I have zoomed this in to help you. 

Image three shows the result of Verstappen's error. Hamilton has had to turn out of the corner to avoid contact with the car inside him which has missed the corner. 

The final image shows the result of Verstappen's mistake, he just manages to maintain the track himself but has forced Hamilton off track on to the paint. A driver is required by the regulations to leave a car's width at all times until he has fully completed the overtake, clearly here Verstappen has not done so, more likely simply because he can't rather than a deliberate attempt to force Hamilton off. As Hamilton led prior to the incident then they were allowed to continue. Had Hamilton not managed to retain the lead then almost certainly Verstappen would have been penalized for forcing an opponent off track. 

Hopefully that has put you right on the incident. 

 

 

As I’ve explained and said and quoted a few times now.. Lewis asked to come in.. I do know the pit procedure on the radio coms… They told him to stay out.. It doesn’t matter what technicality’s of dropping a place or other.. They told him to stay out.. So by that information he did.. And by that information it cost him to basically loose the race on old tyres.. If he had fresh rubber on he could of put up more of a fight on the last lap sprint… So going back to this they have Goofed up.. 

Pictures 2 and 3 on the corner incident. You can see Max had the inside line for the corner.. what choice did he have to go wider on the exit out of the corner, No driver in the world would been able not to keep to the inside on the exit out.. And if you look at pic 3 you can see Perez following the same race line as max…  If you take note the big incident was over that Hamilton went wide cut off the corner and proceeded and not letting max take the lead… As the stewards said No action to be taken…!!!

[Mouldy]

3 hours ago, ScrumpyCheddar said:

, As I’ve explained and said and quoted a few times now.. Lewis asked to come in.. I do know the pit procedure on the radio coms… They told him to stay out.. It doesn’t matter what technicality’s of dropping a place or other.. They told him to stay out.. So by that information he did.. And by that information it cost him to basically loose the race on old tyres.. If he had fresh rubber on he could of put up more of a fight on the last lap sprint… So going back to this they have Goofed up.. 

Pictures 2 and 3 on the corner incident. You can see Max had the inside line for the corner.. what choice did he have to go wider on the exit out of the corner, No driver in the world would been able not to keep to the inside on the exit out.. And if you look at pic 3 you can see Perez following the same race line as max…  If you take note the big incident was over that Hamilton went wide cut off the corner and proceeded and not letting max take the lead… As the stewards said No action to be taken…!!!

You can say what you like and defend Verstappen’s win as much as you like, but changing the rules when they did, clearly favoured Verstappen.  Masi and his gangs  interference in so many races this season has undoubtedly affected the result of the championship and on a World stage, has damaged F1’s reputation.

It was a shambolic end to the season and much needs to be done to define the rules, so there is no risk of misinterpretation, by any party, whether that is a race team or the FIA.

This will end up in court rightly or wrongly and I hope it does, not necessarily to see the result of the World Championship changed, but to reinforce the fact that rules exist and should be followed by all parties, including the sport’s governing body.

Ive followed F1 since I was a child and I cannot ever remember a season ending like this.  It would have been better if Hamilton and Verstappen had taken each other out in my opinion.  At least the result could have been put down to a racing incident and not an incomprehensible decision by an incompetent race director.

[Meantime]

Just out of interest what rule was changed?

The purpose of article 48.12 is to remove those lapped cars that would "interfere" in the racing between the leaders, it is in effect a Blue flag for all those in the way of the racing to get out of the way before the safety car comes in. It doesn't say that all lapped cars have to unlap themselves! Even though that has happened in the past.

[floydraser]

I notice that a culture has been allowed to develop where the team principles have been allowed to argue and try to influence the race director during the race. Not all the team principles, just the two of them on a regular basis. They clearly sense his vulnerabilities and were winding him up. He, poor bloke, cracked under pressure. It was obvious when at one point he said, "give me a minute.." and kept on talking. He didn't take a minute.

Answer? Easy: bring in Nigel Owens. Look him up on Youtube.

[Bikertov]

IMHO, in the circumstances they should have either left the safety car out until the end of the race, or red flagged it and called the result.

As it was, what the Race Director did was engineer a situation where LH, having led the whole race, was disadvantaged by the Safety Car with his lead wiped out, then MV given an unfair advantage of a last lap sprint on new tyres. LH had no chance.

[Paul]

Spot on Bikertov, that is just what they should have done, OR left the cars in their on track order for the last lap. 

1 hour ago, Meantime said:

Just out of interest what rule was changed?

Very much it is, as is often the case, the precise wording and interpretation of them and how the rules were applied. 

Initially race control advised that lapped cars would not be allowed to overtake, this was displayed to teams on the timing screen and shown on the TV coverage

Next Christian Horner was heard arguing with Michael Masi the race director who advised Horner that he was busy dealing with clearing the track, however the argument continued.

Regulation 48.12 states that: If the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message "LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE" has been sent to all Competitors via the official messaging system, any cars that have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car.

What happened next was that Masi displayed a message only for those cars between Hamilton and Verstappen to pass, then a further message saying safety car ending. 

Regulation 48.12 goes on to say: Unless the clerk of the course considers the presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap.

There are two issues Mercedes are disputing here, that the last lapped car meaning all those lapped cars behind Verstappen were not allowed to overtake, there being nothing in the rules to allow some cars to overtake and that rather than ending the safety car at the end of the following lap they ended it at the end of the same lap on which lapped cars had overtaken, contrary to rule 48.12.

Hopefully that answers your question Meantime, it was not that the rule was "changed" but, not for the first time this season a rule was not applied correctly. 

In dismissing Mercedes appeal Masi advised the team that once the "safety car ending" message has been displayed then regulation 48.13 obliges race control to end the safety car at the end of that lap. This is 48.13 in it's entirety 

When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" will be sent to all Competitors via the official messaging system and the car's orange lights will be extinguished. This will be the signal to the Competitors and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap. At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than ten car lengths behind it. In order to avoid the likelihood of accidents before the safety car returns to the pits, from the point at which the lights on the car are turned out drivers must proceed at a pace which involves no erratic acceleration or braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart. As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the SC boards will be withdrawn and, other than on the last lap of the sprint qualifying session or the race, as the leader approaches the Line the yellow flags will be withdrawn and a green flag and/or green light panel will be displayed at the Line.

Nowhere in that text does it oblige race control to end the safety car, in fact there have been numerous cases in the past, some quite recent where an on track incident has led to the "safety car in this lap" message being withdrawn and the safety car period extended. 

I am not a barrister, I am not qualified to determine legal argument but I have no doubt this will go before those that are, firstly at the FIA and then the CAS if still not resolved. Whatever my qualifications, or rather lack of them the wording seems quite clear to me, but you make up your own mind. 

In my eyes this word title is a farce, it's hollow. A statistic in the history book but totally without merit of any kind. It was not won, but awarded by the powers that be.

[Bikertov]

14 minutes ago, Paul said:

In my eyes this word title is a farce, it's hollow. A statistic in the history book but totally without merit of any kind. It was not won, but awarded by the powers that be.

Your last paragraph says it all !

[OldBerkshireBoy]

If that race had been the first race of the season I feel that it would of ended under safety car conditions. 

[SteveO]

Against my better judgement I watched the race yesterday. For me all it did was to remind me why I don't follow F1.

[Bikertov]

35 minutes ago, OldBerkshireBoy said:

If that race had been the first race of the season I feel that it would of ended under safety car conditions. 

They did that at the Belgian Grand Prix - after just 5 laps or so under the safety car, then declaring it a 'race' and awarding half points.

Again, Verstappen got the benefit of that unprecedented and farcical decision.

[oldgregg]

I'm not unhappy that Max has taken the title. Too much Lewis has been really bad for the sport and audience figures have waned considerably.

But the way it happened isn't right, for sure. This is F1 trying to engineer a spectacle (and let's not forget the fact it just happened to be the last lap of the last race, and not decided back in September like they used to be).

I suspect Max could have passed the lap traffic and still caught Lewis given how fresh his tyres were. Really it should have been all cars or no cars to unlap themselves.

But to take it to court and overturn the decision would just make a total mockery of F1 and really make people not want to watch. I think a review of the race director/steward process is needed, but as F1 is owned by what is essentially an entertainment company I'm not convinced it'll happen.

[Bikertov]

Had MV won the race and the season fair-and-square, with clean and sportsman-like racing, I would understand and say fair enough, he deserved it.

But, IMHO, I think he is a brat, a bully and a dirty driver.

Lewis is almost always a clean and sportsman driver. I don't care much for his politics, but of course that is his right to say and think whatever he wants.

Contrast where MV walked off the podium the other week in a strop, with this week LH shaking MV's hand, standing on the podium, shaking Whingey Spices' hand and not speaking out about the result. A true gentleman and a sportsman.

[ScrumpyCheddar]

5 minutes ago, Bikertov said:

Had MV won the race and the season fair-and-square, with clean and sportsman-like racing, I would understand and say fair enough, he deserved it.

But, IMHO, I think he is a brat, a bully and a dirty driver.

Lewis is almost always a clean and sportsman driver. I don't care much for his politics, but of course that is his right to say and think whatever he wants.

Contrast where MV walked off the podium the other week in a strop, with this week LH shaking MV's hand, standing on the podium, shaking Whingey Spices' hand and not speaking out about the result. A true gentleman and a sportsman.

Bikertov You left out 2021 World Champion 🏆

[marshman]

Sadly by actually engineering a result, they will have driven more real fans away - I suspect the reverse was the intention to encourage a silly spectacle and in the long term they could drive more away than they could have attracted!

I suspect less people will watch  next year, knowing it is effectively fixed!

[Bikertov]

2 minutes ago, ScrumpyCheddar said:

Bikertov You left out 2021 World Champion 🏆

No I didn't, cos I don't think he is