Open Wallet Surgery (maybe)

[Vaughan]

4 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

You can only play the team in front of you 

Right, so let's play it!

As a toll payer, I would certainly be writing a protest to Dr Packman today to express my serious fears for the future of the Broads. With the state of the Royal Mail at the moment that would take over a month, so too late!

But they say this forum has 3000 members, so why don't we express our concerns by PM on this forum, to @BroadsAuthority who I hope are following this thread this morning?

Could Tom Waterfall please confirm that PMs sent will be seen by Dr Packman as well as the Chairman?  If not, does Dr Packman have an e-mail address to which complaints may be sent?

[Lulu]

38 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

May I make a prediction.

The mooring charges at Ranworth and Reedham are generating a lot of light and heat at the moment.

They will be dropped and that will be seen as a win by us in the boating community.

While the once again above inflation toll increase will quietly slip through.

Anyone?

I haven’t got a massive issue with the toll this year, although would feel differently if they add the same percentage or more next year. The issue I have is free moorings being turned into chargeable moorings. If it happens at these two places, it opens it up to happening to every mooring. 

[ExSurveyor]

As an owner, the biggest impact is increasing mooring fees on my home mooring. Most home moorings will rise by at least £200 this year, the toll increase of around £60 is less impactful. The accumulation of all these increases will have an impact on private owners.

Everything is going up, surplus cash is going down.

Salhouse broad charges for mooring, is this a precedent or are the circumstances different ?

[Smoggy]

My moorings went up by about £50 this year, not bad as it's the first increase I think since 2012.

I don't have a huge issue with the 13% but obviously I'd rather not have to pay it but the mooring fees are another matter, I don't think they'll happen and agree with the "make it look like a win for boaters" theory.

[FlyingFortress]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

Right, so let's play it!

As a toll payer, I would certainly be writing a protest to Dr Packman today to express my serious fears for the future of the Broads. With the state of the Royal Mail at the moment that would take over a month, so too late!

But they say this forum has 3000 members, so why don't we express our concerns by PM on this forum, to @BroadsAuthority who I hope are following this thread this morning?

Could Tom Waterfall please confirm that PMs sent will be seen by Dr Packman as well as the Chairman?  If not, does Dr Packman have an e-mail address to which complaints may be sent?

If this thread is going the way I suspect it is there will be a call to set up an organisation that actually represents Toll Payers as the existing ones are simply not fit for purpose and I agree.

I am not certain that The NBN is the appropriate vehicle to use and although I am willing to be proved wrong, I don't think the owners and admin would like it to be.

I have been there and done it and failed as some long time members may remember. 

If anyone does want to try I am quite willing to be contacted and share my thoughts and warn of any pitfalls. Please PM me.

One warning before embarking on this course. 

I did Chair a residents association in my last Village that was opposed to a development that The Country Council wanted. I thought it would take up perhaps 6 months of my time.

It took us almost 7 years to defeat them.😳 But defeat them we did.👍

As stated I am quite willing to support any such organisation but I am not willing to devote my entire free time.... AGAIN

 

[Bikertov]

Reading this is worrying for me - an aspiring future boat owner

When I consider my dream of owning a boat, I will start to add up all the costs and may soon realise it is too expensive not just to own but to actually use the boat.

I want a simple life, where I can have a boat and quietly cruise and moor as I wish, with the benefit of spending some money at, and to support, local businesses

If the costs look too high, my dream will fade and never happen.

[floydraser]

I've been following this thread with interest but it's moving so fast it's hard to keep up! 

I guess home moorings are going up to cover the lack of an increase during the pandemic. 

I would be bothered if I were in the business of hiring out boats on the Broads: so when considering the cost of a holiday how much should one budget for extra mooring charges? Don't know, so therefore can't work out how much the holiday is going to cost. Hmm, don't think I'll bother then. What about people who have already booked holidays, do they have the right to cancel for free? I'm not sure they'll be a rush for bookings once the word gets out that apart from the hire fee, there'll be further charges for moorings. How does it sound to you hirers?

Could there be a last minute amendment whereby hiring companies could prepay and/or be exempt?

Is it just me but wouldn't a better way forward be to have more free moorings with the rules of overstaying firmly enforced? More boats, more tolls?

Alan Thomson's remarks are very dismisive and extremely unhelpfull. Although to honest I still haven't learned the perfect time to keep it shut either. Clearly demonstrates the general culture within the BA. I see no evidence of a willingness to encourage new visitors to the broads but I do see evidence of the wrong kind of thinking. In the name of balance though, they are reducing the size of their own space at Yare House so credit for that at least.

[FlyingFortress]

6 minutes ago, Bikertov said:

Reading this is worrying for me - an aspiring future boat owner

When I consider my dream of owning a boat, I will start to add up all the costs and may soon realise it is too expensive not just to own but to actually use the boat.

I want a simple life, where I can have a boat and quietly cruise and moor as I wish, with the benefit of spending some money at, and to support, local businesses

If the costs look too high, my dream will fade and never happen.

Please don't be put off.

For all us owners whining. The cost calculations still come out well in favour of owning as opposed to hiring.

The only proviso is that you actually use the boat enough.

[rightsaidfred]

1 hour ago, ExSurveyor said:

As an owner, the biggest impact is increasing mooring fees on my home mooring. Most home moorings will rise by at least £200 this year, the toll increase of around £60 is less impactful. The accumulation of all these increases will have an impact on private owners.

Everything is going up, surplus cash is going down.

Salhouse broad charges for mooring, is this a precedent or are the circumstances different ?

Yes circumstances are  different, Salhouse mooring fees pay for upkeep, Ranworth upkeep payed from tolls.

Fred

[FlyingFortress]

I suppose one good thing could come of the decision to charge for moorings is that if you wanted to spend a week at say Ranworth then £70 a week to park your own luxury accommodation on the Staithe has to be cheaper than hiring a cottage.👍😁😂

[SwanR]

But would the 24 hour stay still be in force if a charge is brought in? And would electricity perhaps be included?

As a hirer I am already aware that I need spending money if I want all moorings available to me. I’ve often paid to moor on the Island rather than play sardines at the Staithe despite the charge. 

[marshman]

In all the years I have been on the rivers, I cannot remember a time when I moored up on the Staithe - I have always mudweighted.

[Broads01]

55 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Yes circumstances are  different, Salhouse mooring fees pay for upkeep, Ranworth upkeep payed from tolls.

Fred

Agreed. Also, my understanding is the land at Salhouse is privately owned but Ranworth is a public staithe. The Quay at Reedham I would have thought was local authority owned so how a charge is fair there bewilders me somewhat.

[Matt]

6 hours ago, ExSurveyor said:

 

Salhouse broad charges for mooring, is this a precedent or are the circumstances different ?

Apart from a couple of day stops during covid we just don’t pay to moor there. Mudweight and dinghy/paddle board does just fine.

we won’t pay to stop at Ranworth. Spending money is a balance- we just have better things to spend our money on.

And as for Reedham the mooring at the mouth of the Chet always have space and is a lovely place in the summer 😃

[YnysMon]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

And as for Reedham the mooring at the mouth of the Chet always have space and is a lovely place in the summer

It is indeed, but the only time we planned to moor there it was full! Mind you, it was an August bank holiday weekend. And an unusually hot one. (2019)

[FlyingFortress]

So there is no appetite to actually do anything except moan about The BA.

This is why the organisation I set up failed.

Lots of moaning but no action.

Over

[ExSurveyor]

As you alluded to earlier, we are a discussion forum not a campaigning forum, so probably the wrong platform to organise action on.

[FlyingFortress]

3 minutes ago, ExSurveyor said:

As you alluded to earlier, we are a discussion forum not a campaigning forum, so probably the wrong platform to organise action on.

I think that's what I said earlier.

[Vaughan]

7 hours ago, FlyingFortress said:

So there is no appetite to actually do anything except moan about The BA.

This is why the organisation I set up failed.

Lots of moaning but no action.

That's fine, coming from someone whose post above effectively killed it.

So let's all just sit here like sheep and take what is coming to us.  At least I tried.

Sadly, those of us who are not prepared to sit here and watch what our parents' generation created being frittered away , will fairly soon vote with our feet.

[Roy]

Lulu and bikertov have said exactly what I’m thinking that owning a boat on the broads is now not a viable option for me because of the cost of everything. 

I totally disagree with ba charging for those mornings and let’s face it next year they’ll charge for more probably wroxham and coltishal. 

Last year I spoke to a family who was hiring for the first time they were adamant they wouldn’t be back as they felt like the minute they moored up people were knocking at the boat wanting money his words were every one is out to skint us!!! The boat cost a fortune without all the extras. 

So hate to say this I can honestly see in ten years time there being just 4hire yards on the broads 

 

[MargeandParge]

Yes it is expensive and BA moorings should be included in the tolls. Without us contributors the BA would not exist as is. We are paying for them to electrify their operations and when completed they will wag a finger at the rest of us saying we don't care about the environment.  They won't  make any provision for us mere mortals to join them.

On the other side of the coin a caravan, static, chalet, or cottage are as expensive if you like to be independent while on holiday. A saving these days is being able to self cater if you choose and your pets can be with you 

If on a hire craft you have the choice to moor in other yards and most of the Northern hot spots have one.

While we can manage a boat is still  for us. We think that Womac run by a charity is very good value at a five pounds.

Regards Marge and Parge 

[SwanR]

Quite often over on the Facebook groups you get people asking what they should take with them as it’s their first time. My answer is often to take some money for mooring if they want to be able to use the likes of Salhouse or Beccles or Womack Water. Plus you may need some coins to leave for water. 

But the cost is going up for hiring like everything else. We’ve booked a midweek break at a Warners hotel half board for over £100 less than it would have cost to hire Rose Emblem again, and that’s out of season in March. And that’s what I would consider a fairly modest forward steer cruiser, nothing fancy or new. 

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, MargeandParge said:

We are paying for them to electrify their operations and when completed they will wag a finger at the rest of us saying we don't care about the environment.  They won't  make any provision for us mere mortals to join them.

This is the other thing that gives me great concern, as a Broads boat owner.  The BA, as a typical Quango, are surfing the wave of a green agenda, by announcing all sorts of percentages of carbon neutrality by certain dates.  The next thing will be to put us under pressure to do likewise, but without doing anything to make it possible.

I also notice we have not heard of any hire boatyards building electric boats, except day launches.  The impression I get from talking to friends is that they think that one day, it may be possible technically, to provide the power to run a cabin cruiser "for a couple of days", but certainly not yet and not for several years to come.

Do we know if BA are actually re-fitting their launches this year?  If so, do they not think that the technology they are using might be also of interest to us?  Or might encourage us to research the possibilities?  If they are going to charge for moorings, does that mean they are going to use the income to install proper boat charging points?  Dream on!!!

I think we should all be able to realise that the BA's next "green incentive" will not be anything to do with infrastructure - too difficult, too expensive, planning constraints, National Grid, etc., etc. -  oh no!  The next political move will be be to introduce an increased toll on diesel boats as a pollution charge.

So bang goes your investment in the boat that you worked so hard to pay for.  You don't believe me?

Watch this space.

 

[Tempest]

The green agenda being pushed by successive governments is nonsensical in my opinion, but that is amplified by clean air charges to enter a town or City, reduction in speed on sections of motorway to apparently reduce carbon emissions and much, much more including green agendas by organisations such as BA.

So I do not feel that you are way off the mark @Vaughan

The world is a huge place, and I have travelled much of it with my work and recreation.

If you visit the packed cities of Accra in Ghana, Abuja in Nigeria and Tunis in Tunisia for example (all recently visited by me) you will see literally thousands of old dirty vehicles of all shapes and sizes, including a high proportion of 4x4s, monster trucks, pick ups and vans, together with many HGVs, buses and coaches which would never be allowed on UK roads.

The road network is atrocious and the driving similar!

But they are at least 50 years away from even considering green programmes.

That's just 3 countries out of hundreds of similar countries across the world in the same place.

But our little island somehow must race to become green or the planet eco system will collapse!

In my opinion we are being played and sadly far too many are too blinkered to see the true world around them.

Yes, we should do what we can, but that should not be to the detriment of the people, the businesses and the locations which we all hold dear.

 

[rightsaidfred]

We need to be wary of diluting and diversifying the issues here, hire boating has never been cheap and while a small part of the hire charge would be towards the toll it is minor compared to the rest of the cost, it should also be realised that a hire boat is essentially mobile self catering accommodation the extent of onboard facilities and all the other expenses is optional depending on personal choice of why you chose that type of holiday.

The toll for a private boat is non negotiable and its significance and perceived value for money is dependent on how and how much each individual uses their boat and in general the Broads toll is a lot less than other waterways, however a comparison with other waterways is not really relevant as the type of maintenance and services provided i.e. moorings and dredging etc are vastly different and individual to each system.

The main issue here for me is the immorality of an unjustified charge to use a public mooring that is wholly funded from the tolls, as a toll payer I believe I have an entitlement to use a facility that I have already contributed to without further charge and will write to the BA saying so  and without an organised campaign others might wish to do the same,.

I would be happy for anyone with a better legal understanding than myself to confirm or contradict me but I believe that as the BA have no powers to issue fines or fixed penalty notices and in this instance there is no relevant byelaw to breach unlike with tolls and overstaying the 24hr rule non payment of a potentially illegal double charge and given the covenant in the original transfer of ownership would be a civil not criminal matter which I think the BA would have considerable difficulty justifying and recovering in a small claims court from several thousand private toll payers.

Fred