Latest BA Advice On Covid Lockdown

[grendel]

39 minutes ago, Paladin said:

No, I didn't. I was trying to make the point (lost on you) that there are those who blindly follow the guidance (which changes with the wind) without making any judgement themselves, and there are those, like rightsaidfred and me, who carefully read and understand the law, consider the guidance and come to a reasoned decision. If everyone came to the same decision regarding law, there'd be no need for lawyers.

I have carefully read the law and by my understanding of it have not changed my mind, i will still be staying at home as that is my understanding, no matter how cleverly you try and persuade me otherwise. i will follow my understanding and my conscience. what makes you believe that those who have made a decision different to yours are sheep and are only blindly follow the guidance, i am following the guidance, by my own evaluation and because in my judgement it is the right thing to do.

[Ray]

56 minutes ago, Paladin said:

No, I didn't. I was trying to make the point (lost on you) that there are those who blindly follow the guidance (which changes with the wind) without making any judgement themselves, and there are those, like rightsaidfred and me, who carefully read and understand the law, consider the guidance and come to a reasoned decision. If everyone came to the same decision regarding law, there'd be no need for lawyers.

You are clearly the font of excellence, no one can think as clearly as you. Congratulations

20 minutes ago, Cheesey69 said:

I’ve sucked it up. 
Have you?

Yes! 

[Paladin]

24 minutes ago, Islander said:

So if I go to the boat, I can sit and watch the wildlife, make tea, read a book all as part of recreation but as soon as I lift the cabin floor and pour some antifreeze into the exhaust system it becomes unnecessary travel and not allowed. Someone tell me if I’ve got that wrong.

What I hear is different sections of gov sitting on the fence and passing the buck. Either allow boating, even if restricted to daytime use, or ban all of it including canoes, paddle boards and fishing boats.

Colin

You're not exactly wrong, but you're conflating a couple of issues. The devil is in the detail.

If your boat is in a private marina or other private moorings, the difference between 1) simply going to your boat for maintenance and 2) taking it out for recreation is that with 1) you are not going to a "public outdoor place", which is a prerequisite for both exercise and recreation. With 2), you are going to a "public outdoor place", where you may take part in any exercise and/or recreation - which may include working on your boat (which is great fun, isn't it).

It's not about 'unnecessary travel', which isn't mentioned in the regulations, but having a "reasonable excuse" for leaving your home.

[Paladin]

24 minutes ago, grendel said:

I have carefully read the law and by my understanding of it have not changed my mind, i will still be staying at home as that is my understanding, no matter how cleverly you try and persuade me otherwise. i will follow my understanding and my conscience. what makes you believe that those who have made a decision different to yours are sheep and are only blindly follow the guidance, i am following the guidance, by my own evaluation and because in my judgement it is the right thing to do.

But you clearly haven't carefully read my post. I described those who blindly follow guidance, without any thought process of their own, as sheep. If you have given the matter carefully thought, having fully understood the regulations and guidance, then you obviously don't fall into that category.

I haven't been attempting to change your mind on the subject. I've merely been countering what I viewed as incorrect assessment, with cogent argument. Isn't that what discussion is about?

[Paladin]

20 minutes ago, Ray said:

You are clearly the font of excellence, no one can think as clearly as you. Congratulations

Yes! 

Thank you, but do you actually have a contribution to add to the discussion?

[Ray]

2 minutes ago, Paladin said:

Thank you, but do you actually have a contribution to add to the discussion?

 

24 minutes ago, Ray said:

If everyone came to the same decision regarding law, there'd be no need for lawyers.

You clearly have not understood my point... nor, it seems, your own!

[Gracie]

18 minutes ago, Ray said:

 

You clearly have not understood my point... nor, it seems, your own!

Ray, join the club, my club  people don't understand my point half the time, that doesn't mean I'm wrong though 

[OldBerkshireBoy]

24 minutes ago, Paladin said:

Thank you, but do you actually have a contribution to add to the discussion?

That is a low blow!

Q, Are you an ex copper?

[Gracie]

I have no understanding as to why people have to be so rude, it's not wanted and totally uncalled for. Ray, I always understand your posts, not sure if that's a good thing for you though  Carry on contributing x

[Ray]

1 minute ago, Gracie said:

I have no understanding as to why people have to be so rude, it's not wanted and totally uncalled for. Ray, I always understand your posts, not sure if that's a good thing for you though  Carry on contributing x

Definitely a good thing, thanks Gracie 🍺

[Paladin]

13 minutes ago, OldBerkshireBoy said:

That is a low blow!

 

No, that was a genuine question.

[OldBerkshireBoy]

37 minutes ago, Paladin said:

Thank you, but do you actually have a contribution to add to the discussion?

I hope that you retract that comment sir, it is more akin to a redneck plumbers forum than here.

[JennyMorgan]

Here we go again!

[Meantime]

So the hard facts as taken from a government website show that in the last 7 days (6 of which are under new National Restrictions) there has been an increase in new infections compared to the previous 7 days. 

This increase isn't because I might consider that legally I am allowed to visit my boat for the day on my own, even if Jenny doesn't want us Covid ridden Southerners coming to Suffolk. 

It isn't because Palandine and his missus have a trip up the river on their own boat with no other guests.

It isn't because Grendel has retreated within his shell for the duration of the new National Restrictions.

It isn't because RSF and Ray and others are staying at home and urging us all to do likewise, even trying to persuade some of us we are bending the rules, not following the spirit, or the intent of the rules.

It is not because Gracie is causing a national shortage of wine and chocolate with all her online shopping.

I think we can all agree that in our own way, we are all trying to find our way through this mess and retain some form of sanity. So lets not start arguing or making personal comments to each other. We are not the problem.

I read in my local paper tonight that the Police and PCSO's were called to enforce social distancing at a local branch of Game because a new games console had been launched and if you had pre ordered online, then Game were open for click and collect customers. Whether you call collecting a games console an essential trip or not, it was not illegal, and it has happened up and down the country where there are Game stores. What is stupidity and illegal is not following social distancing and the Police having to attend to enforce it. 

On the drive home from the supermarket earlier I witnessed at least two or three groups of around 8 to 10 teenagers hanging around. Again my local paper has reported groups of people congregating in a park in Colchester. I'm sure it's happening all over the place.

Off course the groups of 8 or 10 teenagers I saw will see no wrong in what they are doing, because tomorrow they will be in class in groups of 25 or 30.

I drove past the local fish and chip takeaway and saw a queue of about 8 people, none more than a metre apart. I like fish and chips, but I would have had a row if I'd nave stopped for fish and chips.

We, most, if not all, on this forum are not the problem, even if we do see things slightly differently to each other, and whether we stay at home, or take reasonable sensible precautions and venture beyond our four walls in a safe socially distanced legal way, we are not the ones who are going to make a difference during this period of National Restrictions.

What we can do is be civil to each other and not argue amongst ourselves. Have a debate and share our points of view, even have a difference of opinion, but politely please. 

[grendel]

with the incubation period of around 7 dys the rise is to be expected as that is easily atributed to meetings that took place outside of the new regulations, the telling numbers will be from now forwards, as the effects of the restrictions take hold.

Paladin, I dont think its fair to anyone to say they are following guidance like sheep, I feel most that follow the restrictions will have put thought into the matter and have made a conscious choice.

the ones that are of concern are those who think they can just carry on doing what they want and ignore any guidance because it obviously does not apply to them, the ones making no effort to change, and who probably have not even read the guidance.

the very fact that we are able to discuss the issues and debate the ramifications means we are not among that group, and that we are at least considering what we are / are not allowed to do, the fact that we all have come to different views, is normal and shows we have thought through the problem, we are all different so will all come up with different answers.

 

Finally, wearing my moderator hat for a moment, just a call for us all to calm down and keep things civil and polite, this thread was moved into speakers corner so that the moderators could exercise tighter controls, but we dont want to stifle the discussion as the topic is important, just ensure that we keep the discussion polite and respect each other.

Thanks

 

[Vaughan]

As far as I am concerned, if there is a law (that I recognise as legal) then I will abide by it, always provided that I understand it!

A couple of days ago I asked the question here : can my daughter go out for the day on our boat?  Despite all the discussion I still don't think we know the answer to that.  So quite obviously, the law is not clear and precise enough for people to follow properly.

We are in the same sort of lockdown here as in England and we are abiding by the rules and staying at home.  That doesn't mean I am convinced by the reasons for it!  Does a lockdown make any real difference?  I don't know but I suspect the statistics that we are offered to justify shutting down whole countries.

For instance, what has happened to the 'flu, all of a sudden?  Flu is a coronavirus, transmitted in the same way, so one would expect that with all these Covid precautions, there will be a lot less 'flu this year.  But where are the figures?  How many people have still died of the 'flu this year?  And why don't we know?  The 'flu killed 28,000 people in the winter of 2015 but did we shut the country down, and all go scuttling about with disposable nappies on our faces?  Average 'flu deaths are said to be 7000 every winter.  Over a five month period, that is 325 per week!  So where have they all gone this year?  Or have they, as I suspect, been lumped in among the "covid deaths" and are just distorting the figures?

Those who wish to take extra precautions for their own reasons have nothing to stop them making that choice.  Although someone's still got to be out there running the country, somehow, in their absence.  Some people are in professions and dedications which don't give them the luxury to hide away from it.

Meantime those who wish to carry on living as normal a life as possible should not be criticised for doing so within the regulations as they stand.  If the "stay at home and save lives" camp think they are wrong to do this, then it is perhaps the law that is wrong, not the people who are trying to interpret it.

 

[grendel]

maybe through all these years we should have been taking the same precautions for flu as we now do for covid- by that I mean the hand cleaning and facemasks, not the shutting down of the whole country. it has taken this pandemic to highlight some of the precautions we should always have been taking, but as a personal choice rather than by government dictat.

It has highlighted several things, the lack of allowing others their personal space, the overcrowding of public transport amongst others,

I for one am hoping the restrictions will be pared back and that new social etiquette will come into being where masks are socially acceptable, and leaving space for others becomes the norm.

this pandemic has been a world changing event, lets see what we can do to make sure we come out of this with a changed perspective that might make our world a safer place for all. where employers ask that employees suffering from colds and flu dont have to travel to an office via public transport, but can work from home (where possible) rather than forcing them to come into work, then finding most of their work colleagues now have the flu.

we can but hope, and do our best to see this vision come to pass.

[Vaughan]

I agree with all you suggest, Grendel, provided that doesn't mean I am obliged to spend the rest of my days appearing in public with a nappy on my face.  I am afraid I find that very difficult to live with, from a human interaction point of view.  I am not a psychologist but I suspect that these coverings have removed a great deal of the trust that we should have in each other, as fellow citizens.  The mask makes me feel like some sort of leper and I suspect I am not alone in that.

As to catching the 'flu, we have surely always known that if you are elderly or medically vulnerable to it, then you must take certain precautions.  We all know to avoid trains and aircraft and most especially and far the worst of all, the waiting room of a doctor's surgery!  They are simply factories for the catching of whatever is "going around" and if they can be improved in future, that will be a big step forward!

My daughter, in the meantime, thinks she is at far greater risk of catching the virus from her children at school, than she is from her work in A&E.

As for boating, as I said back before the first lockdown, if my daughter, in her profession, thinks it is perfectly safe to take her kids down the river for a day out, then I am happy to believe her!

[grendel]

as I see the latest utterances from the broads authority that seems to be a matter of personal choice, as they dont seem to be able to decide either way, I can see that it would be good for her mental health and wellbeing, particularly for those on the front line so to speak, but would not encourage everyone to do it as individual circumstances vary, certainly for me its not an option as I cannot justify the travel. 

I too share your views on face coverings as i really struggle with the standard masks, and have gone to great lengths to find an alternative that works for me, if I had to wear one all day at work, then I am afraid I would have to change jobs as that is physically impossible for me, the face covering I have is only good for short periods after which I need to recover my breath, so its off as soon as I leave a shop.

[ChrisB]

10 hours ago, Gracie said:

I have no understanding as to why people have to be so rude, it's not wanted and totally uncalled for. Ray, I always understand your posts, not sure if that's a good thing for you though  Carry on contributing x

I totally agree with you Gracie but I do ponder on the fact:-

That as the younger set Tweet, Facebook etc and members of the more traditional forums grow ever older maybe a touch of Vascular Dementia may add to the abrasive nature of some posts.

And of course, there is the element that given a keyboard and an audience the humble Navel Rating can be an Admiral. 

 

[NeilB]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

My daughter, in the meantime, thinks she is at far greater risk of catching the virus from her children at school, than she is from her work in A&E.

I have 2 children in secondary school, 1 in junior school and my wife is a special needs teaching assistant in a 3rd school.  My eldest come home with tales of replacement teachers and others brought out of retirement, the 6th form were also sent home for self isolation.  Since September by wife has had to self isolate once and yesterday I collected my daughter at lunchtime as she needs to self isolate as well.  I've had to cancel 2 trips to customers, luckily nothing that cannot be delayed a while.

As to catching Covid in hospital, that's why we recently scattered my mothers ashes to join my dad at their favourite stretch of river near Coltishall.

This may all appear to be one big mess, but hopefully in a year or so we can all look back, be grateful it's in the past and try not to worry too much about how were going to pay for the cost.  As long as we have enough funds to cover a few trips to the Broads.

[rightsaidfred]

Having taken time to digest all the various comments and viewpoints it seems to me the underlying problem is that to many want or need normal forms of legislation for an abnormal situation.

Throughout history many bad laws have been made for specific reasons that could and have been amended over time with experience, here we are dealing with a constantly evolving situation where no one sector be it political, science, health or commerce can agree on the best course of action let alone form a legal structure that encompasses everyone and everything, its no wonder various agencies are struggling to come up with unified advice for specific issues within laws designed to provide general guidance on a moving target.

What has also become clear is that the majority of responsible people don`t need laws to behave appropriately but that sadly the sector of the public where the laws need to be applied largely ignore them anyway thus creating the need for even more laws a never ending cycle that causes even more resentment.

As for a comparison with ordinary flu I think that is somewhat misleading, the flu is mostly seasonal and we have vaccines to help mitigate them, at the moment Covid seems to be a permanent fixture with no natural break in its cycle just relying on human intervention to slow its progress, while I accept face masks have their place in slowing the spread I also couldn`t wear one continuously, I am finding that as on here with the written word we are loosing a lot by not seeing facial expressions when conversing with others, a smile says a lot without words.

Lastly I would second the call for tolerance and respect for others views however strongly we disagree with them, no argument however valid carries any credence once it degenerates into a slanging match.

Fred

[JennyMorgan]

17 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Lastly I would second the call for tolerance and respect for others views however strongly we disagree with them, no argument however valid carries any credence once it degenerates into a slanging match.

And I would like to third that call.

[MauriceMynah]

I an reminded of my late brother in law who, when asked by his young daughters, "Can I leave the table?" would reply, "You can, but you may not!".

Also the drowning man who called out to men on the riverbank, " I'm drowning, Can nobody help me?" so they stood there and watched him drown

The words in question are    CAN ..MAY and SHOULD.

Can I winterise my boat? Yes. If you have access to your boat and the DIY skills to do the job, then you CAN do so.

May I winterise my boat? (the question that is being debated) Current guidance suggests that you may not.

Should I winterise my boat? Well that one is for you to decide.

It seems to me that most of the people here are, whilst arguing whether or not you may, have decided that they should not. Surely THAT should be the message to be pushed.

 

[Poppy]

https://www.simplypsychology.org/milgram.html

An interesting piece of work in view of the present 'controversy'.