Running Engines, Of Sorts

[JanetAnne]

And if the infrastructure isn't in place the broads will suffer the same outcome. 

Yes we can all claim self sufficiency while that old internal combustion engine is throbbing away under the floorboards but take that away and where are we all?

Coz taking that away is a dead cert 

The decisions being made now regarding charging points will dictate the very future of boating on the broads. Canoe anyone?

[BrundallNavy]

2 hours ago, eddybear said:

Yes we could call them sail boats

The problem with this is because you have spent all day sailing once you moor up your batteries are flat and you have no hot water so will have to run the engine or plug into shore power. It will never catch on. 

[Victoryv]

So , Mr big private boat has decided he can no longer live without running his generator again, 2 hrs now!, time to leave I think, once it stops raining 

[JanetAnne]

41 minutes ago, Victoryv said:

So , Mr big private boat has decided he can no longer live without running his generator again, 2 hrs now!, time to leave I think, once it stops raining 

You've escaped then. I did wave as you passed....

[rightsaidfred]

1 hour ago, JanetAnne said:

And if the infrastructure isn't in place the broads will suffer the same outcome. 

Yes we can all claim self sufficiency while that old internal combustion engine is throbbing away under the floorboards but take that away and where are we all?

Coz taking that away is a dead cert 

The decisions being made now regarding charging points will dictate the very future of boating on the broads. Canoe anyone?

Before we all panic that day is a long way off, Diesel cars will still be around long after the cut off date for new cars, by the time they get around to boats a whole load of new technologies will be in place.

Fred 

[Cal]

31 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Before we all panic that day is a long way off, Diesel cars will still be around long after the cut off date for new cars, by the time they get around to boats a whole load of new technologies will be in place.

Fred 

Or they will have pushed back the date for the ban on sales of petrol and diesel cars because they realise their target is not achievable  

[Cal]

1 hour ago, Victoryv said:

So , Mr big private boat has decided he can no longer live without running his generator again, 2 hrs now!, time to leave I think, once it stops raining 

What rain?

It's blazing sunshine here in Worksop!!

[PaulN]

Hire craft are not fitted with generators, so that is irrelevant for charging batteries. The original subject was the annoyance caused by people running engines for hours when moored in close proximity and driving a number of us mad.

The examples I quoted were all where power is readily available. I didn't for example mention St. Benet's where this would obviously be very difficult, as I'm not stupid.

Like it or not, life moves on and technology evolves, therefore the Broads need to move with the times. I have been going to the broads all my life and my parents even told me that I was conceived there over 70 years ago!! I remember for example when no boats had holding tanks and we went from 'mucking about in boats' to 'boating about in muck, is that still acceptable to the traditionalists who prefer to drive to their boat at 4 mph, with a man walking in front waving a red flag. The broads are dependent on holiday makers and if the venue is to remain attractive then we must accept that the primitive days of boating are over for the vast majority, who expect modern facilities on bots that are therefore more power hungry. Those who wish to continue in basic boats with minimum facilities are still welcome to do so.

My toll charge this year was £583 and hire companies are charged vastly more for a similar sized boat, so I consider it reasonable that some of this money is spent on us in advance of some of the spurious projects we read about in B.A.'s Broads Briefings.

If additional power is not going to be provided, then ban running engines on compact moorings and allow us to enjoy the tranquility of the Broads!

[Vaughan]

 

I have posted this before and the question is still the same:

Is this what we want to see on the Maltsters' Quay at Ranworth? Because if we have electric boats then this is what will be required. there is no alternative.

Somehow, I doubt if I will live to see the day!

[PaulN]

13 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

 

I have posted this before and the question is still the same:

Is this what we want to see on the Maltsters' Quay at Ranworth? Because if we have electric boats then this is what will be required. there is no alternative.

Somehow, I doubt if I will live to see the day!

Please don't try to trivialise what I've said by being silly. What we already have at Ranworth is exactly what I would like to see at other close proximity moorings.

[Victoryv]

I don’t believe the current electric power we have at the moment is going to work for the boating future, diesel is here to stay for a very long time, the engine in my boat is 40 plus years old and will more than likely still be  viable in another 40, I unfortunately will not ,

 

which in some ways pleases me, I like proper engines, electric motors reduce cars, motorcycles and boats to nothing more characterful than white goods, we are not saving the planet by removing engines from the world, the planet will live on its humanity that won’t 

sorry I didn’t see you Dave 

[BuffaloBill]

42 minutes ago, Victoryv said:

which in some ways pleases me, I like proper engines,

As do I ! Fitted to my Hotrod car.

[Cheesey69]

Bio diesel will be the future fuel for boating.  Electric power for boating is really a no go and it will consign many craft and owners to the tip. 

[Vaughan]

59 minutes ago, PaulN said:

Please don't try to trivialise what I've said by being silly.

I cannot see any way that you should think my comment was aimed at you personally, especially as I said I had already posted this before.

I don't need to be called silly either, please.

If electric propulsion in boats is to come, then this is the equipment that will be needed to provide the charge for them.  If it is needed by a car, then it will be needed even more by a boat, with accommodation on board as well as a 27 kilowatt (minimum) propulsion motor.

Existing shore power points on the Broads are simply "mains" plug points.  They are not powerful enough to charge electric boats (on DC current) overnight.

[Hylander]

What gets me is the idea that everything is electric and what if the electricity providers fail to provide, old adage comes to mind "dont put all your eggs in one basket".

I personally like the choice, diesel, petrol, gas, or electric, not one size fits all.

 

[grendel]

I just thought of a way to get electricity to the remote moorings, you could put a diesel genset at each one, this would mean boats wont have to run their engines at moorings.

[Vaughan]

1 minute ago, grendel said:

you could put a diesel genset at each one,

Powered by an old Field Marshall tractor!

[OldBerkshireBoy]

34 minutes ago, BuffaloBill said:

As do I ! Fitted to my Hotrod car.

What is the manifold made from Bill?

[RS2021]

2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

 

I have posted this before and the question is still the same:

Is this what we want to see on the Maltsters' Quay at Ranworth? Because if we have electric boats then this is what will be required. there is no alternative.

Somehow, I doubt if I will live to see the day!

This looks like Tesla's rapid charging set up. I think it gives something like a 90% charge in 10 mins. If we go down this route, you don't need these everywhere, probably just boatyards. It will make charging similar to filling up with water, stop for 10 mins and then carry on. If you pair these with water points, you can do both at the same time  (just don't mix the two!) and then carry on to any mooring you like.

[Cal]

11 minutes ago, RS2021 said:

This looks like Tesla's rapid charging set up. I think it gives something like a 90% charge in 10 mins. If we go down this route, you don't need these everywhere, probably just boatyards. It will make charging similar to filling up with water, stop for 10 mins and then carry on. If you pair these with water points, you can do both at the same time  (just don't mix the two!) and then carry on to any mooring you like.

However if it is anything like Tesla chargers it will only work with Tesla cars so you will have to go and find a charging point that is compatible with your boat/car while hoping you have enough battery power to get there 

[oldgregg]

Thankfully, there are a growing number of the CCS DC fast chargers, the new Rugby services at the bottom of the M6 being a good example. There are quite a few substations and transformers serving all those 350KW bays, though, it's quite an interesting thing to look at from an engineering perspective.

I think the marine industry will just adapt that technology from the automotive industry, as it ultimately does now. Probably the most mature electric marine engine manufacturer (Torqeedo) uses BMW i3 battery packs for its offering.

Based on some fag-packet calculations, I think 300KWh of battery is roughly equivalent to the amount of energy a broads Cruiser that would otherwise burn 100 litres of diesel uses in a summer week (ie not including heating). The domestic usage has been calculated based on a fairly 'average' boat so you'd want to up that for 240V appliances, and the diesel figure is based on getting 3.3kWh out of a litre of diesel (taking into account the circa 70% losses in terms of heat and noise).

If we could get to the point of having CCS at boatyards, then you could theoretically manage a one-hour turnaround. But I think topping up overnight on slower chargers is more likely.

I think it is undeniable that at some stage the technology will reach the point of maturity where the BA sets out a date for new boats to be electric.

At the moment the powertrain cost is going to be easily £50K, but that is falling rapidly. Ten years ago 1KWh of battery storage was costing a grand, now it's getting below £100 and energy density is increasing.

And yes, the infrastructure needs to get there and is not there yet. But it has to and it surely will.

[PaulN]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

I cannot see any way that you should think my comment was aimed at you personally, especially as I said I had already posted this before.

I don't need to be called silly either, please.

If electric propulsion in boats is to come, then this is the equipment that will be needed to provide the charge for them.  If it is needed by a car, then it will be needed even more by a boat, with accommodation on board as well as a 27 kilowatt (minimum) propulsion motor.

Existing shore power points on the Broads are simply "mains" plug points.  They are not powerful enough to charge electric boats (on DC current) overnight.

I didn't mention charging electric boats, the subject was about inconsiderate people running engines on moorings. 

[NeilB]

2 hours ago, grendel said:

I just thought of a way to get electricity to the remote moorings, you could put a diesel genset at each one, this would mean boats wont have to run their engines at moorings.

Several years ago this is exactly what Volvo Buses did when they discovered no one could supply enough power to run the fast chargers based across several large cities!  The electric bus itself was a complete success, but they had to use several diesel gensets from ourselves to re-charge them!

[CambridgeCabby]

The one worrying factor for me which no one is considering or mentioning is the very real risk posed mixing electricity and water , the amps that are stored in an electric car are dangerous. If you have an accident in an electric car and phone one of the breakdown services they have to send specially trained staff to assist “due to the increased risk of injury” ; in my trade we have to pay a much higher public liability premium if we run electric vehicles .

The systems if used on a river cruiser when new and properly maintained are safe , however when a few years old and after being subjected to the Heath Robinson type of repairs and “upgrades” we have all seen on older cruisers one wonders how safe they will be.

Modern Diesel engines are economical , clean and their carbon footprint due to the amount of usage they get on a boat would IMHO be lower than the carbon footprint created by the rape of the earth caused by the extraction of the materials needed for a fully electrical unit.

Its typical , that just as mankind (and womankind) has perfected the Diesel engine to be what it is today we are rushing all to quickly into binning them and turning towards EV’s before we have perfected the science and technology needed .

[oldgregg]

There's a lot of work to do yet, but the benefit would be no tailpipe emissions (and oil, etc) going into the rivers and Broads, and boats that are very quiet.

I wouldn't miss the sound of a Nanni at 2000rpm, and I doubt anyone else would.