Running Engines, Of Sorts

[Vaughan]

25 minutes ago, PaulN said:

I didn't mention charging electric boats, the subject was about inconsiderate people running engines on moorings. 

So my comment was obviously not aimed at you and gave you no reason to call me silly.

This subject (whether about propulsion or domestic supply) is all about infrastructure.  There are not enough electric points now and there probably won't ever be, at this rate.  Too many agencies involved, too many planning restrictions, too much disturbance of crested newts and all the rest of it.  To say nothing of who is going to pay for it and where the generation of all this "green" energy is going to come from.  Not from the existing national grid!

It's no good getting too upset about an engine running at a steady speed on a mooring, if the person doing it has been given no practical alternative.

 

[oldgregg]

12 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

It's no good getting too upset about an engine running at a steady speed on a mooring, if the person doing it has been given no practical alternative.

As much as engine running annoys me, there is no escaping this fact.

Most hire boats don't have shore power and need 4 hours of engine running at a good speed to get enough charge to keep everything going. The idle speed is usually set quite high, too, to ensure the alternator is actually producing enough to be of use.

There are times when I've had to do it myself, the alternative being having no lights, running water etc.

[Heron]

I believe people and governments are in for a shock when they realise that environmental damage caused producing batteries, electricity, wind turbines, nuclear power stations etc. and then decommissioning, then replacing it all over time, is going to far exceed the environmental damage from modern, well maintained engines that last for years. Simply put, there is no way currently known to the human race of producing energy without pollution of somekind.

I certainly do not know what the answer is, and nor do any of the so called experts, in my opinion.

Lots of people are going to make a lot of money on the way though!

[Ray]

I fear that many people are going to die along the way too 🙁

[rightsaidfred]

2 hours ago, RS2021 said:

This looks like Tesla's rapid charging set up. I think it gives something like a 90% charge in 10 mins. If we go down this route, you don't need these everywhere, probably just boatyards. It will make charging similar to filling up with water, stop for 10 mins and then carry on. If you pair these with water points, you can do both at the same time  (just don't mix the two!) and then carry on to any mooring you like.

Given the limited  number of diesel outlets where are all these charging stations coming from without having a line of boats queuing down the river to access one, I can spend a week going North to South on under half a tank of diesel and can go 5 to 6 days on a tank of water.

I really am bemused by all this herd attitude towards a costly short term fix with electric propulsion that will in a relatively short period of time prove logistically impractical, car manufacturers must be rubbing their hands with a ready made market in a few years time when everyone starts dumping their electric cars, unfortunately this will create its own problems disposing all the scrap.

Fred

[YnysMon]

We visited the Loddon local history display in Loddon Church this afternoon. Having been reading this thread earlier I was amused to read that Loddon finally got an electric supply in 1927, and it took a request from at least six households before it was thought worthwhile bringing in the cabling. 

I wonder what the future will hold for electric boats, shore power and so on.

 

[annv]

Hi Many boats running there engines on moorings is to heat the water for showers not charge the battery's if a boat runs for four hours there will still will not have a enough hot water for four adults , 1/2 hour will heat the tank up but only for two people if used frugally, if all hire boats had a small water heater like a webasto 50 there would be less pollution no noise and plentiful hot water and less diesel used this is where the BA should start. John

[rightsaidfred]

2 hours ago, annv said:

Hi Many boats running there engines on moorings is to heat the water for showers not charge the battery's if a boat runs for four hours there will still will not have a enough hot water for four adults , 1/2 hour will heat the tank up but only for two people if used frugally, if all hire boats had a small water heater like a webasto 50 there would be less pollution no noise and plentiful hot water and less diesel used this is where the BA should start. John

While I largely agree I have such a system but would not say there is no noise although quieter than an engine and you still get fumes, what is possible is to get several showers from one tank if you soap yourself first and just use the shower to rinse off, unfortunately most seem to think you can behave on a  boat as you would at home.

Fred 

[Cheesey69]

25 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

While I largely agree I have such a system but would not say there is no noise although quieter than an engine and you still get fumes, what is possible is to get several showers from one tank if you soap yourself first and just use the shower to rinse off, unfortunately most seem to think you can behave on a  boat as you would at home.

Fred 

Totally agree.  When we broke down recently we had to stretch Autumns on board resources. The battery bank lasted with ease, and that’s running the fridge and tv the usual amount. 
The hot water lasted as Fred said because we done exactly as he described. 
Interestingly when we got back and plugged in the Victron charger, for 24 hours was only down 30 amps on a 110 amp battery. 
my conclusion is that you could run much deeper than you think into stored amps and water  

[OldBerkshireBoy]

I`m at a loss to understand why more boats werent built with a diesel powered water cooled generator as found on canal boats and others.

[RumPunch]

[Mouldy]

On 30/06/2021 at 21:08, grendel said:

you also need to investigate the spare capacity on any local power supply, as each charging post effectively uses the same as a single house, so running 10 new charging posts may be beyond the capacity of the local electricity supply. similarly adding electric vehicle charging to every household has the same issue.

Good point and one that I’m not sure that the Government has investigated sufficiently before creating targets that to most people are unachievable.  We currently struggle to produce enough electricity to power our current (no pun intended) requirements, so as a complete layman on the subject, I don’t see how we are suddenly in a position where we can charge the ever increasing number of electric vehicles that we are all being encouraged to buy.

As I said, my knowledge of electric capacity is somewhat sketchy,  but could it be that our mythical family invest a a large chunk of hard earned in a new electric car only to find out that the supply to their neighbourhood won’t support the installation of a home fast charger or is that investigated before the purchase is made?

From Grendel’s comment, it seems to me that the whole infrastructure needs to be upgraded to be able to provide power for electric vehicles, even if only half the number on our roads were to be changed to that form of propulsion.  Can you imagine the size of motorway service station that will be required to recharge about 100 electric powered articulated lorries overnight and the power drain on local resources that will create?  Also, how has the recycling of batteries suddenly become an environmentally friendly process, as my understanding of that was that it was not.

To me, we are chasing the wrong technology here, to provide a short term fix to a long term problem.  Where is the investment in hydrogen power?  The byproduct is water and it wouldn’t strain our already inadequate electricity supply.  The electric bandwagon that everyone is jumping on, is not the best solution (to me, at least).  Once again, this is a knee jerk reaction to a problem that requires more thought to resolve.

Time for me to shut up now and put my soap box away, as I remember a similar thread about a year ago.

[Cheesey69]

Do you think anyone's going to push for other forms of power after the Nissan announcement and the undisclosed amount of public money used to get that plant built?

I suspect the proven Hydrogen aspect isn't being followed because it wont create a whole raft of new industries.

Many governments around the world are counting on a green revolution in new industries to mop up spare capacity due to automation of the workforce  

[Vaughan]

17 hours ago, Hylander said:

I personally like the choice, diesel, petrol, gas, or electric, not one size fits all.

It is also a question of "horses for courses".  The efficient use of electric propulsion for day launches has been proven over many years by the Phoenix Fleet at Potter, among others.  An electric cabin cruiser is a different matter as it has a much larger hull to push through the water and also has all the electric consumption from being fitted out for living aboard.  I quoted a 27 kilowatt motor as (from memory) that is the power rating of a Nanni 4220 engine.

In the 70s all the then - new river inspectors launches were running on butane gas, on the same principle as a factory fork lift truck.  I don't know what happened to that experiment but it was very successful at the time. Still a fossil fuel of course but quiet and smooth, economical, with no pollution whatever other than CO2.

Electric boats are nothing new on the Broads!  My father had one of the first ones, in 1946 - bought from Wrights of Ipswich and powered by the starter motor off a Morris Navigator.  It had a bank of four 6 volt batteries which were surplus from wartime army lorries and could go back and forth across the river in Thorpe several times a day, for 3 or 4 weeks before the batteries were changed for re-charging.  It was still in regular use right up until we moved off the old gunboat and bought a house, in 1989.

 

[grendel]

probably because hydrogen is dangerous stuff when mixed with air - remember the hindenberg.

OH to be serious now, there are trials under way to replace our current gas supply from natural gas over to hydrogen, the biggest stumbling block currently is making it a safe product in the home, ie safe flameout devices and safe procedures for startup.

if we can get hydrogen from our regular household gas supply, then we can get it into our cars and vehicles and use hydrogen fuel cells, it is my belief that electric vehicles was only ever going to be the intermediate step, and the current battery systems will eventually be replaced with hydrogen fuel cells generating tthe power rather than batteries, this would then enable the fast top up, just pull in to the gas station and top up the tank style usage. I think that may be the ultimate goal.

In the mean time the government is forcing greater reliance on an electrical infrastructure that is already on the verge of not being able to cope, we need new power generation, that takes time to build (more time than has been allowed to phase out petrol and diesel vehicles), we need new electrical infrastructure - new cables and substations, yet all this could well be redundant if we can get hydrogen fuel cells online and working, a hydrogen fuel cell could power a house, boat or car, which might then make the electricity supply into the home redundant, and put a greater reliance on the gas supply. Of course the government are encouraging new housing to be built electric only at the moment, a short sighted policy if you are looking to the longer term and hydrogen as a fuel source, some joined up thinking will be required to get this all sorted out and prepared for the future energy supply.

[Vaughan]

Something else I like about the hydrogen idea is that its factory production could be entirely powered by wind farms and parks of solar panels, so no pressure on the national grid and genuine "green" sustainable energy.

I have always been rather sceptical about windfarms as they don't work when there's no wind, but this could be an excellent use for them.

[BuffaloBill]

18 hours ago, OldBerkshireBoy said:

What is the manifold made from Bill?

It is mild steel tubing sandblasted(Not shot blast) then sprayed with copper

paint spray designed for BBQ's. Has worked really well and is certainly different!

[eddybear]

19 hours ago, grendel said:

I just thought of a way to get electricity to the remote moorings, you could put a diesel genset at each one, this would mean boats wont have to run their engines at moorings.

I suppose you mean one of them silent thingamajigs running continuously day and night,don't give the BA ideas please LOL

[RS2021]

Anyone fancy a personal electric water craft, check out this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-london-57610362

I actually saw one in action on a recent holiday in Devon - not sure I'd be able to stand up on one.

[Mouldy]

1 hour ago, Cheesey69 said:

Do you think anyone's going to push for other forms of power after the Nissan announcement and the undisclosed amount of public money used to get that plant built?

I suspect the proven Hydrogen aspect isn't being followed because it wont create a whole raft of new industries.

Many governments around the world are counting on a green revolution in new industries to mop up spare capacity due to automation of the workforce  

Investing in Nissan is (in my opinion) little more than a PR exercise.  Governments (not just this one, but all of them), have chucked enormous sums of money at white elephants for years.  Let’s look at a few:

Crossrail - three years late and still not operational.  To be fair, at the time of its conception was probably a good idea, but post pandemic and with the explosion of working at home, will it be worth it?

Smart Motorways - utterly ridiculous idea and flawed from the outset.  Taking away the relatively safe refuge from busy motorways and access to the scene of an accident for the emergency services could never have been a good idea from the start and it’s taken some one how long to realise that they’re not as safe as they thought?

HS2 - what a waste of the taxpayers money to save a few minutes on the journey between London and Birmingham.  How many people will actually benefit from its building?  Certainly not me, living in Norfolk.  Now, restoration of some of the branch lines to reconnect towns and villages with a reliable public transport solution would surely be more beneficial.  Sadly, HS2 won’t be cancelled for reasons I can’t say on here, but they’re quite obvious.

And they’re still fighting over another runway for one of London’s airports.  Since when has air travel been green?  Should we be encouraging it whilst aircraft are fuelled with fossil fuels and we’re being encouraged to buy electric cars because they’re greener.

At the end of the day, our contribution to greenhouse gasses pales into insignificance by comparison to China and India.  Who’s going to be brave enough to tell them?

[rightsaidfred]

1 hour ago, Cheesey69 said:

Do you think anyone's going to push for other forms of power after the Nissan announcement and the undisclosed amount of public money used to get that plant built?

I suspect the proven Hydrogen aspect isn't being followed because it wont create a whole raft of new industries.

Many governments around the world are counting on a green revolution in new industries to mop up spare capacity due to automation of the workforce  

And that is when we begin to understand we live in two worlds, we have the political world where votes count and politicians pander to whatever sector will keep them in power and then the other logical and practical world that ordinary people live in.

Even if we could by some stretch of the imagination encompass electric charging to the required level in this country there are so many under developed country`s in the world where it would be impossible through distance and economics.

Fred

[RS2021]

1 hour ago, grendel said:

there are trials under way to replace our current gas supply from natural gas over to hydrogen

 

1 hour ago, grendel said:

In the mean time the government is forcing greater reliance on an electrical infrastructure

I think the hydrogen v electric debate is very interesting. I think its a two horse race and I really don't know which will win.

Its interesting that National Grid who own both the gas and electricity transmission systems and have very good forecasting teams looking into the future of this countries energy needs have recently announced they are to sell the gas transmission system and buy an electricity distribution system similar to who Grendel works for. So it clear which horse they are choosing to back.

[TheQ]

16 hours ago, YnysMon said:

We visited the Loddon local history display in Loddon Church this afternoon. Having been reading this thread earlier I was amused to read that Loddon finally got an electric supply in 1927, and it took a request from at least six households before it was thought worthwhile bringing in the cabling. 

I wonder what the future will hold for electric boats, shore power and so on.

 

The house I lived in (in Hoveton technically) didn't get mains water till the 1970s..

[annv]

Hi Vaughan Butane gas was used because it was cheaper no tax until government put tax on it for road use it is now is not much cheaper along with very few places where you can fill up and on a boat a leak could be catastrophic aka gas fridges on canal boats and needs a petrol derived engine,wont run a diesel to higher compression ratio,  electric motors dont need to have a comparable horse power as diesel engines do, yes hydrogen looks good for cars etc but boats same as butane and although made from water Hydrogen requires a lot of power at the moment to produce it not much cheaper, but the pollution is moved else where when used in city centers but it will come im sure the beauty of electric for boats and cars is they can be charged  over night at home on white meter or mooring  run from 13 amp supply and have a solar panels on the roof which will charge 18 hours a day weather permuting and if a silent generator was fitted which is  easy on a boat will charge when battery charge is depleted( small engine running at max efficiency) and heat the water as well,and boats have the space for cheaper wet cell battery's unlike cars where weight/ size matters, nothing,  is going to be cheap or easy or pollution free its just that the pollution can be removed to a large factory and contained or reduced. John

[Cheesey69]

Smart motorways (which I work on) was and is an attempt to save vast amount of money.

It cost around 9 billion to convert the M25 to (in sections) to all lane running. Triple that to run a hard shoulder plus extra land and infrastructure.

That's just for 110 miles.

And the road network is getting on in years.

The way I see it, forcing us to convert to electricity and charge times, will force us to drop those needless journeys just by the sheer inconvenience and cost thus reducing the load on the roads.

As does the encouragement to work from home, home deliveries etc