Corona Virus

[DAVIDH]

Bit of a hard read, but very illuminating. If ever the government wanted to scare people into staying away from the Coronavirus, they should widely publish this document from a USA hospital doctor.

https://www.newyorker.com/science/medical-dispatch/what-we-dont-know-about-covid-19

[marshman]

And then there is the other side - those people who have it, or who have had it, with little or no symptoms.

Enough scary stories around without providing a little balance!!!!!!!

[DAVIDH]

36 minutes ago, DAVIDH said:

If ever the government wanted to scare people into staying away from the Coronavirus, they should widely publish this document from a USA hospital doctor.

That bit was only meant to be light-hearted. Don't let it stop you reading why it's so difficult to find suitable treatments for this disease. 

[Paul]

having read that, the "side effects" that they lead with such as autoimmune disorder, kidney failure and blood clots are all known side effects of many pulmonary disorders including viral pneumonia. 

I was the main carer for my late aunt for several years before she died. A near fatal dose of whooping cough as a child and smoking in her younger years had left her with significant damage to both lungs and she spent her last ten years or so fighting the effects of bronchiectasis and COPD. Among the many pills she took daily were several to suppress her natural immune system and others to thin her blood and prevent clotting. 

As well as getting oxygen into the blood it is the job of the lungs to get rid of the CO2 back into the air you exhale. As they become damaged or blocked by infection the lungs cannot do that and a condition called hypercapnia sets in. It's a vicious circle, you pump oxygen in to increase blood sats which increases the blood co2 level which you can't then "pump out".

My aunt lived with blood oxygen sats of 86 - 88%, well below a healthy adult because otherwise she became hypercapnic and quickly disorientated as the co2 in the blood stops the absorption of oxygen from it by key organs, such as the brain and kidneys. This can quickly lead to brain and kidney damage.

Eventually I became so adept at spotting her symptoms and so knowledgeable about the medial terms what when the paramedic or ambulance attended they thought the information given to 999 came from a doctor. 

[Ray]

1 hour ago, marshman said:

And then there is the other side - those people who have it, or who have had it, with little or no symptoms.

Interestingly parts of that article do refer to the patients who present asymptotically yet the damage/harm is still there with the patient being unaware. It's a very interesting read, probably the most I have learned about Covid 19 in one concise read.

[Meantime]

It is a well known fact that the second peak of Spanish Flu was far deadlier than the first yet it seems we may be destined to let history repeat itself. The government has said there will be no immediate end to the lock down and that some plans for easing it will be revealed next week, yet slowly strand by strand the lockdown is unravelling with even more mixed messages!

Construction sites are re-opening, although they were never told to close in the first place, but it has led to an increase in traffic.

DIY stores which are on the essential list and could have stayed open, closed, then did home deliveries and click and collect for essential items and are now fully reopen with social distancing measures. This morning I received an email from one chain explaining all they had done to make the stores safer for me as a customer and for their staff and advertising that they were now fully open for business again. In no part of that email does it state they are open for essentials only. The government has already confirmed that customers visiting supermarkets for essential items may also shop for other items and that a supermarket is allowed to sell any non essential items it normally sells. I would expect that to be the same for DIY stores, but surely only if your primary reason for visiting is to purchase an essential item? There was absolutely nothing to convey that on the email I received basically encouraging me to visit their stores again. As a result queues are building up at DIY stores all over the country.

Some recycling centres are now reopening in an attempt to stop the sudden increase in fly tipping. I know that people now have the time and are having big sort outs, but that stuff was in the house somewhere before, so surely can be sorted and then stored until this outbreak is over. Anything that could pose a health risk if stored should still be going out with the weekly or bi-weekly roadside collections. I cannot think of anything that I would need to dispose of that would warrant as essential travel to a recycling centre. Yet queues are already building up at the reopened centres. Local Government Secretary Robert Jenrick has confirmed on Friday that it was "perfectly legal" for Britons to take waste to the dump, but surely that should only be if it is essential, and as already pointed out I cannot think of anything that could be classed as essential to dispose of immediately that could not be stored. The government should have put a section in the Corona Virus bill saying that fly tippers would be bankrupted and locked up for 10 years. Bit extreme I know, but it really annoys me.

Fast food outlets are also announcing plans to reopen, again even though they were never told they had to close in the first place. Well done to Greggs for doing a U-turn and announcing that they now won't be re-opening next week as planned.

All these places re-opening ahead of any official announcements from the government must surely lead to an increase in the virus spreading and the "R" number going up, leaving even less scope for the government to attempt to officially start to ease the lock down. Unless I'm wrong it seems like the easing is already happening by default!

Boris wants to get the country back working by the 26th May. With the way things are going I fear the "R" number will already be well and truly on the increase before then!

[Poppy]

To quote sombody famous ( I can't be bothered to look up who),  'It's the economy stupid'.

I fear that the pressure is building amongst the Conservative party back bencers and senior members for some measured return to normality.

That must not be permitted until we are sure that people's safety will not be put at any risk !

[grendel]

in my case disposal of stuff chucked after tidying, could be seen as essential, as it has now exceeded 1/3 of my small garden, thus restricting my exercise / working area, i guess i have at least 4 car loads, and the tip is not yet reopened here, one of our local councilors is requesting that it be re-opened, the best the council have offered is that we can put an additional 2 bags out per collection, and as we alternate collections, that will mean that if i dont generate any more extra waste i can get rid of what i have by sometime early next year. so i hope the refuse centre reopens so i can drop off some of the excess, - then maybe i can make a start on the attic, there might be twice as much rubbish up there.

[DAVIDH]

I think a time is coming when damage to the economy will be weighed against the health of the nation. Not in a cynical way, but having to consider the cost to the UK in terms of additional borrowing, which will signal future austerity (it will be called something different this time) to pay back the loans. This will result in more ongoing deaths due to health inequality and deprivation caused by austerity - that word again. 

I was no fan of George Osbourne whilst he was chancellor, believing that his appliance of austerity was for more than paying back the loans, but on Question Time this week, you had to see the logic of his argument, that spending in times of crisis is essential, but eventually, it has to be paid back in some way, be that austerity or raising taxes, or a mixture of both. 

Just another observation for those who watched Question Time. It was interesting that everyone on the panel (including Osbourne) agreed that the reason for the crash in 2008, was that the banks had to be rescued. Yet, through the next 10 to 12 years, the Labour party did nothing to fight back the narrative proposed, that it was their disastrous handling of the economy that caused it. Never trust a politician is telling the truth! 

[Poppy]

19 minutes ago, DAVIDH said:

I think a time is coming when damage to the economy will be weighed against the health of the nation. Not in a cynical way, but having to consider the cost to the UK in terms of additional borrowing, which will signal future austerity (it will be called something different this time) to pay back the loans. This will result in more ongoing deaths due to health inequality and deprivation caused by austerity - that word again. 
 

The WW1 debt wasn't finally paid off until December 2014 , and that from WW2 was finally paid up in 2006.

There will be no need for austerity - or whatever the chosen name is. It ( if it is imposed) a matter of government policy , an excuse to further reduce public spending .

[MauriceMynah]

38 minutes ago, Poppy said:

There will be no need for austerity - or whatever the chosen name is.

I cannot for the life of me, see how you come to that conclusion. Government spending will have to be enormous to get things back on anything like an even keel. That government spending will have to be paid for somehow.

[Ray]

2 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Government spending will have to be enormous to get things back on anything like an even keel. That government spending will have to be paid for somehow.

Indeed it does but there are many ways to do it, austerity is one of them but there are others. After 10 years of austerity deeper cuts will do more harm than good. I think if I say more than that we get into the realms of party politics which are not allowed for very good reason. So just to be clear any government has options how to begin to recover and although austerity is one it is not the only one.

[MauriceMynah]

I agree Ray, we are skating very close to the "Politics" rule, but in my simplistic way I see only two options. Lower the bill or increase the money to pay it.

[Poppy]

3 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

I agree Ray, we are skating very close to the "Politics" rule, but in my simplistic way I see only two options. Lower the bill or increase the money to pay it.

My earlier pint was that we were able to pay back the spending on two world wars without 'austerity', which in itself has been used as a tool for other purposes !

[Ray]

8 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

I agree Ray, we are skating very close to the "Politics" rule, but in my simplistic way I see only two options. Lower the bill or increase the money to pay it.

Absolutely agree, I was just thinking that there are options open to government other than just one 👍

[Chelsea14Ian]

13 minutes ago, Poppy said:

My earlier pint was that we were able to pay back the spending on two world wars without 'austerity', which in itself has been used as a tool for other purposes !

Can I have a pint as well please 

[ExSurveyor]

Every country is printing money to survive, every country will devalue its own currency by doing this, if all devalue by say 10% then nothing has changed.

The levers of economics are many and varied and can operate  independently to achieve different outcomes.

Had this virus appeared 10 years ago we would have been up a creek without a paddle.

 

 

 

 

[Heron]

We are already up a creek without a paddle, largely because of austerity, which was never going to work. We do need to rebalance how the nation is funded.

I suspect that the poorest in our society pay a greater proportion of their income into the governments funding, no matter which party is in power. Until we find  a way to correct this we will always struggle.

I worked in the Finance industry for 38 years, despite good profits there were always many ways for corporates and  those at the top to avoid paying for the benefits of living in the UK, it needs to change.

[Poppy]

8 minutes ago, Heron said:

 there were always many ways for corporates and  those at the top to avoid paying for the benefits of living in the UK, it needs to change.

Especially when they come begging for help when times are bad ! I think we all know at least one...

[Meantime]

1 hour ago, Poppy said:

Especially when they come begging for help when times are bad ! I think we all know at least one...

Please sir can I put up my island paradise up as collateral for a loan. It has only been ravaged by fire once recently, oh and a hurricane a few years later. Should still be worth a few quid though. I would try my hand at the lottery but I didn't win the lottery franchise and spat my dummy out over that one so on principle I won't buy a ticket. I would use the money I got from suing the NHS but we're not allowed to disclose how much that was.

[Turnoar]

The only virgin product I’ve ever bought is olive oil... I think the halcyon years were when the Atlantic challenger was commissioned from lowestoft (Brooke or Richards?).

[Paul]

On 02/05/2020 at 13:36, Poppy said:

To quote sombody famous ( I can't be bothered to look up who),  'It's the economy stupid'.

I fear that the pressure is building amongst the Conservative party back bencers and senior members for some measured return to normality.

That must not be permitted until we are sure that people's safety will not be put at any risk !

In which case we will be in lock down for the next twenty years. It might come as a shock but Government are aware that every step taken to ease lock down will put people at risk, and there unenviable job will be to balance that risk against the need to get our economy moving.

[Meantime]

A thought provoking quote I saw today.

The end of stay at home orders will not mean the pandemic is over. It just means they currently have room for you in the ICU if needed!

[Poppy]

3 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

A thought provoking quote I saw today.

The end of stay at home orders will not mean the pandemic is over. It just means they currently have room for you in the ICU if needed!

We need to remember the stated reason for lockdown. It was to preserve capacity in the NHS. It did. The capacity was achieved though at the cost of all other elective appointments and surgery.
Its now a question of balance. Move the covid patients into the Nightingales asap, get the hospital back to normal working and get the world back to work.
Only 250,000 deaths so far out of 7.8 billion  world population.

[Ray]

6 minutes ago, Poppy said:

We need to remember the stated reason for lockdown. It was to preserve capacity in the NHS. It did. The capacity was achieved though at the cost of all other elective appointments and surgery.
Its now a question of balance. Move the covid patients into the Nightingales asap, get the hospital back to normal working and get the world back to work.
Only 250,000 deaths so far out of 7.8 billion  world population.

I agree with you about getting elective appointments back under way. As for the 250,000 though, yes proportionally it's a low percentage but we can't forget that it's 250,000 individual people, dads, mums, children and loved ones. It's very sad.