Coronavirus And The Broads

[marshman]

You are of course, all entitled to your views but do you really think that there is any likelihood of catching it off a gate latch? If so, I think you are all looking for excuses NOT to ever do anything ever again! I am not sure if that really is your view, how you dare put your foot out of bed, let alone step outside your front door!! And as for getting into a car to move it off your driveway!!!

And Andy you go on about cleaning your boats - why not stagger your rentals, if rentals were allowed, so that after a boat was returned, it was left untouched until 48 hours? Do you do your handovers in a closed room so whats the issue doing them outside? You take risks every day of your life like walking around a boat, let alone have issues from unknown other medical events, so a 1 to 1 handover would in all seriousness be pretty risk free - I certainly would not have too many qualms. No problem is too difficult if you are able to take a balanced view!

And there we have Griff ( sorry Griff using you for illustrative purposes only!) advocating laser eye surgery - every kind of surgery carries a risk and there will be instances occasionally of some operations actually making things worse, but people are happy to accept that risk because that is what we do, and how we get through life. I would love someone to forward real evidence that you could get Covid 19 off packaging - I doubt anyone has actually done the science - other than on Faceache! The chance of someone with Covid 19 handling any package is very very small, and it then surviving in the hands of Royal Mail, is so small you would never even to be able to measure it!!

We have to conquer fear and be able to make realistic judgements - I read the other day that scientists testing vaccines are having real problems finding individuals to test, and yet we all believe vaccines are the way forward - if not we have to cope and live with it, because as sure as eggs is eggs, we cannot live like this going forward expecting others to pay us to do not a lot except worry ourselves to death!

[vanessan]

There is a rather interesting article on the BBC News website, ‘Coronavirus: the mystery of silent spreaders’. It’s basically about a church service in Singapore back in January which was attended by two Chinese citizens who had recently flown in from Wuhan and within a couple of days fell ill with the virus. Other members of the same congregation subsequently fell ill plus one lady who had not been at the same service. CCTV footage showed that she had sat in the same seat as one of the original Chinese pair later in the day. (Singapore carried out contact tracing very early on and kept their infections very low.) I have no doubt there will be a few scoffs at this little story but it might make some think a bit more about their actions and precautions. 

[Oddfellow]

52 minutes ago, marshman said:

You are of course, all entitled to your views but do you really think that there is any likelihood of catching it off a gate latch? If so, I think you are all looking for excuses NOT to ever do anything ever again! I am not sure if that really is your view, how you dare put your foot out of bed, let alone step outside your front door!! And as for getting into a car to move it off your driveway!!!

And Andy you go on about cleaning your boats - why not stagger your rentals, if rentals were allowed, so that after a boat was returned, it was left untouched until 48 hours? Do you do your handovers in a closed room so whats the issue doing them outside? You take risks every day of your life like walking around a boat, let alone have issues from unknown other medical events, so a 1 to 1 handover would in all seriousness be pretty risk free - I certainly would not have too many qualms. No problem is too difficult if you are able to take a balanced view!

And there we have Griff ( sorry Griff using you for illustrative purposes only!) advocating laser eye surgery - every kind of surgery carries a risk and there will be instances occasionally of some operations actually making things worse, but people are happy to accept that risk because that is what we do, and how we get through life. I would love someone to forward real evidence that you could get Covid 19 off packaging - I doubt anyone has actually done the science - other than on Faceache! The chance of someone with Covid 19 handling any package is very very small, and it then surviving in the hands of Royal Mail, is so small you would never even to be able to measure it!!

We have to conquer fear and be able to make realistic judgements - I read the other day that scientists testing vaccines are having real problems finding individuals to test, and yet we all believe vaccines are the way forward - if not we have to cope and live with it, because as sure as eggs is eggs, we cannot live like this going forward expecting others to pay us to do not a lot except worry ourselves to death!

Sorry, I bow to your superior knowledge of how viral epidemics spread uncontrollably. I don't know how many times we have been told that the virus can live outside on metal surfaces for up to 72 hours. I have lost count. 

I also bow to your knowledge of how the holiday industry works. Sure, let's get a boat back in on Saturday and tell the next guests they can't have it until late Monday, but they still have to return it on Saturday so we can let it settle for another two days. That'll work. 

How do you show somebody how to drive from being outside? With respect, you don't run a boat hire company and it is very easy to sit at a screen and type just how easy everything must whilst having little or no first-hand knowledge. 

I really don't care if you have any qualms over it. My wife is in a significant AT Risk category from this infection and I have an absolute duty of care to everybody who holidays with us and to my family. 

[Broads01]

1 hour ago, marshman said:

do you really think that there is any likelihood of catching it off a gate latch?

Absolutely yes there is.

[marshman]

No Andy  - I cannot tell you how to run your business but without a bit of imagination you may have issues. I sympathise but you forget about the risks you are taking every day ,without realising it. And certainly I know others in your industry who are possibly considering how to operate their boats and cope with the cleaning and with social distancing and the like, perhaps by leaving boats for 48/72 hrs - but perhaps they don't have the same duty of care you have. You actually don't have to actually be in an industry to have a clue. I agree that there would have to be many limitations but some revenue is surely going to be better than none, simply because handouts will begin to finish sooner rather than later

Many, probably if not all, industry is having to adapt to survive - all I am saying is that some industry has had to adapt instantly - the food industry and delivery industry a case in point, whereas others may well be forced to eventually think out of the box a bit. I assume you have opened the rest of your yard now, and who knows the industry may well have to consider some limited hiring before the end of the season is out. Normal rules will not apply, but they don't in most other cases either. Lets see how it develops - you may be surprised!

(And as for catching it realistically off a gate latch - what about those people who brave supermarkets to shop and who will brave other places from next week? I certainly do now and will continue to do so - but I agree thats my choice! )

[Poppy]

4 minutes ago, marshman said:

(And as for catching it realistically off a gate latch - what about those people who brave supermarkets to shop and who will brave other places from next week? I certainly do now and will continue to do so - but I agree thats my choice! )
 

I agree.  We are incredibly bad at understanding risk, and responding appropritely. Social media, TV and newspapers make this worse. We all have our individual beliefs and prejudices ,and we tend to 'mop up' everything that reinforces and supports them . I learned this through 35 years working in the pharmaceutical industry.

I prefer to research for myself before jumping to conclusions based on , at best 'dubious' claims , which are neither reviewed by expert opinion or repeatable.

[grendel]

the one thing i find ludicrous is at te supermarket just inside the door they provide the equipment to clean your trolley handles, of course by the time you get to this point, you have been queuing outside with the trolley for 20 minutes.

[Oddfellow]

40 minutes ago, marshman said:

No Andy  - I cannot tell you how to run your business but without a bit of imagination you may have issues. I sympathise but you forget about the risks you are taking every day ,without realising it. And certainly I know others in your industry who are possibly considering how to operate their boats and cope with the cleaning and with social distancing and the like, perhaps by leaving boats for 48/72 hrs - but perhaps they don't have the same duty of care you have. You actually don't have to actually be in an industry to have a clue. I agree that there would have to be many limitations but some revenue is surely going to be better than none, simply because handouts will begin to finish sooner rather than later

Many, probably if not all, industry is having to adapt to survive - all I am saying is that some industry has had to adapt instantly - the food industry and delivery industry a case in point, whereas others may well be forced to eventually think out of the box a bit. I assume you have opened the rest of your yard now, and who knows the industry may well have to consider some limited hiring before the end of the season is out. Normal rules will not apply, but they don't in most other cases either. Lets see how it develops - you may be surprised!

(And as for catching it realistically off a gate latch - what about those people who brave supermarkets to shop and who will brave other places from next week? I certainly do now and will continue to do so - but I agree thats my choice! )

No, I don't forget about daily risks; I understand them and this led to my comment about gate latches which you disbelieve. 

How is it possible to operate any business that has back-to-back bookings and shoehorn in 48 hours of downtime between each one? There are just a few ways this can happen: 

1) with customer agreement that they will not get what they booked and paid for

2) by having a significant ability to over-supply the demand

3) a combination of 1 and 2

Given that the 2020 season will have been stripped from around 30 weeks to perhaps 10-15, the chances of any seasonal business being able to make enough money this year to see winter out is debatable. However, to manufacture some kind of over-supply situation will limit revenues to the level that seeing even September out will be challenging.  Nobody can afford to have boats sitting around for 48 hours earning nothing especially when the cleaning and sanitising of them is properly understood. 

I know I have issues; I do not expect to survive and this, in part, is why we have refused any holiday deferral into 2021. The writing is on the wall for seasonal tourism businesses around the country and most will see significantly increased costs and seriously depleted revenues as social distancing prevents covers in restaurants, eblows on bartops, 1/4 capacity on rollercoasters and one in every 5 seats in cinemas, theatres, and other entertainment spaces empty. There is an expected resurgence in domestic tourism on the horizon, but so too is a massive recession. 

Whatever survives immediately after lockdown has to make it through a closed season too. 

 

 

[finny]

you can relatively cheaply buy small portable disinfectant fogging machines which would sterilize every nook and cranny and soft furnishings quite easily on a hire boat .......just one option 

 

finny     

[Oddfellow]

12 minutes ago, finny said:

you can relatively cheaply buy small portable disinfectant fogging machines which would sterilize every nook and cranny and soft furnishings quite easily on a hire boat .......just one option 

 

finny     

And one that the hire industry fully embraces. Not the complete solution, but its one tool in armoury. Biggest problem actually is the concept of "relatively cheaply". In the grand scheme of things, it's low cost but to an industry that is traditionally low profit and has just suffered 3 months of zero revenue when it should have been exceptional revenue (just look at the weather), and these "relatively" low-cost items begin to stack up. PPE is astronomical cost right now, but we have to buy it just to operate in this nerw world of record low income. 

[finny]

i feel for you Andy and others in the same predicament iam wondering if it may be worth talking to your local environment health department situations are changing daily possibly a grant would become available for such  locally anything is worth a try any economic  harm to you is economic harm to the area as a whole customer confidence is paramount to any recovery .........good luck Andy and i wish you well for the future  

finny

    

[Broads01]

2 hours ago, marshman said:

And as for catching it realistically off a gate latch - what about those people who brave supermarkets to shop and who will brave other places from next week? I certainly do now and will continue to do so - but I agree thats my choice! )

People who brave supermarkets, myself included, do so out of necessity, not because any of us are immune from catching the virus when we do so. Likewise with the gate latch example, I'm not saying don't go through a gate, I'm saying there's a realistic chance ( it mat be small but it's still realistic)of picking up the virus from doing so. 

[Broads01]

1 hour ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

I do not expect to survive and this, in part, is why we have refused any holiday deferral into 2021

As a three times customer Andy,  I'm really sorry to read this. I do hope you're able to operate soon and be able to turn in some decent income for the remaining season.

Regarding the issue of leaving boats empty for 48 hours, I agree you can't ask a customer to return a boat after 5 days when they've paid for 7. However, if I was only paying for 5 days and that was the maximum made available, I'd so much rather have that than not hire at all. I know that's probably of limited help because I realise you'd still have boats doing nothing for at least 2 days every week. 

[finny]

21 minutes ago, Broads01 said:

As a three times customer Andy,  I'm really sorry to read this. I do hope you're able to operate soon and be able to turn in some decent income for the remaining season.

Regarding the issue of leaving boats empty for 48 hours, I agree you can't ask a customer to return a boat after 5 days when they've paid for 7. However, if I was only paying for 5 days and that was the maximum made available, I'd so much rather have that than not hire at all. I know that's probably of limited help because I realise you'd still have boats doing nothing for at least 2 days every week. 

That is the beauty in disinfectant fogging you could effectively turn the boat around within hours its quite unbelievable to see a machine in action ,it takes 2 seconds to fill a lorry cab with disinfectant mist that fills every nook and cranny even soft furnishing (car hire firms  its becoming a standard procedure nowadays for turn around ) open the doors and windows and when its surface dry away you go - a waggon cab usually half hour or so depending on conditions its also quite often use on outbreaks of viruses like Nova virus which can often take over a Cruise ship and other nasties 

 

finny

[webntweb]

Fogging has only been proven to work against covid-19 if the agent contains the correct percentage of sodium hypochlorite. Even then it will only be effective if all surfaces that can be have been cleaned thoroughly with detergent beforehand. Areas that would normally be cleaned with disinfectant would still need to be cleaned the same way before fogging.

[Islander]

Hi Andy, just to add to the fogging method I gather Uv-c is becoming popular including a walk through system for aircraft. It may be worth investigating as there would be no consumables other than electricity.

https://www.uvc-lightproducts.com/product/uv-c-mobile-room-steriliser/

Colin 

[marshman]

Simon - and gate latches!!!!!! I accept that there must be the minutest of risk, if you say so, but if you accept there is a risk you have to be able to quantify it. And you cannot!

When this issue of mooring side on at Ranworth came up, there were some who quite seriously believed there was a risk of catching it off mooring posts and ropes. Its all very well saying these things but its from these innocuous statements that the fear that is rampant arises - there just is not a quantifiable risk involved. And to add to that, remember it is only a very small number of people who catch Covid 19 who have severe symptoms and many have none at all, and the measurable risk decreases further still! However, I shall now not touch the latch at my marina now - there isn't a gate - but oh dear I need some water tomorrow, will the tap be ok?

I guess not !!!!

But we do need to accept change - we have to live with it especially as my expectation is, it is not just going to disappear. Sadly!

[grendel]

thats the time to use gloves, or just wash your hands afterwards.

[marshman]

Or not worry about it as I will have just driven to the boat in my highly dangerous motor car and wandered about my deck without a life jacket on!!!!

[Smoggy]

 

26 minutes ago, grendel said:

thats the time to use gloves, or just wash your hands afterwards. 

 

I did exactly that when I last visited my boat, was in works van and had gloves with me so used them to do the gate and gave them a squirt of brake cleaner afterwards before taking them off, I defy any lipid enveloped virus to survive brake cleaner.(don't use it on your skin!)
I will do what I can to minimise risk of me catching or spreading but we do have to carry on at some stage and I probably put my life at far bigger risk everytime I take my motorbike out and I never wear a lifejacket inland and rarely wear it at sea unless going out on deck for any reason.

 

[MauriceMynah]

It's just not your day if you catch covid19 from a dirty life jacket!

[Broads01]

49 minutes ago, marshman said:

if you accept there is a risk you have to be able to quantify it. And you cannot!

I have to do no such thing. The fact I can't quantify the risk doesn't diminish the risk nor its dire consequences. 

1 hour ago, marshman said:

only a very small number of people who catch Covid 19 who have severe symptoms and many have none at all

I find your attitude towards this completely baffling to be honest. I thought the arguments that this is a trifling disease just because it only kills a minority of those that get it had long been put to bed. Alas not. I don't think almost 40000 deaths in the space of two months is a small number. Despite the fact that science has indicated the virus is transferred via surfaces, somehow you don't seem prepared to accept this.

[DaveRolaves]

do you really think that there is any likelihood of catching it off a gate latch?

Yes thats a possibility. Just been informed thats its a good idea to wash the handles of your rubbish bin after its been emptied - makes sense??? 

[ExSurveyor]

When asked about reopening childrens playgrounds today, the medic said not yet, children sneeze and spread snot all over the place. She was of the opinion  that the virus can survive on objects outside.

There is no telling who has wiped snot all over a latch or water hose. This risk will continue to exist but can be reduced by hand sanitiser or hand washing, a very easy precaution to take.

[VetChugger]

3 hours ago, marshman said:

remember it is only a very small number of people who catch Covid 19 who have severe symptoms and many have none at all, and the measurable risk decreases further still!

I truly cannot fathom this cavalier attitude to a situation that has claimed almost 40,000 lives in around two months! Its not over yet by a long way I suspect! Also, folk with a similar attitude,  please keep well away from me and mine! Two metres???  Preferably a good ten milesminimum!!!