Latest BA Advice On Covid Lockdown

[Bytheriver]

4 hours ago, Vaughan said:

As far as I am concerned, if there is a law (that I recognise as legal) then I will abide by it, always provided that I understand it!

A couple of days ago I asked the question here : can my daughter go out for the day on our boat?  Despite all the discussion I still don't think we know the answer to that.  So quite obviously, the law is not clear and precise enough for people to follow properly.

We are in the same sort of lockdown here as in England and we are abiding by the rules and staying at home.  That doesn't mean I am convinced by the reasons for it!  Does a lockdown make any real difference?  I don't know but I suspect the statistics that we are offered to justify shutting down whole countries.

For instance, what has happened to the 'flu, all of a sudden?  Flu is a coronavirus, transmitted in the same way, so one would expect that with all these Covid precautions, there will be a lot less 'flu this year.  But where are the figures?  How many people have still died of the 'flu this year?  And why don't we know?  The 'flu killed 28,000 people in the winter of 2015 but did we shut the country down, and all go scuttling about with disposable nappies on our faces?  Average 'flu deaths are said to be 7000 every winter.  Over a five month period, that is 325 per week!  So where have they all gone this year?  Or have they, as I suspect, been lumped in among the "covid deaths" and are just distorting the figures?

Those who wish to take extra precautions for their own reasons have nothing to stop them making that choice.  Although someone's still got to be out there running the country, somehow, in their absence.  Some people are in professions and dedications which don't give them the luxury to hide away from it.

Meantime those who wish to carry on living as normal a life as possible should not be criticised for doing so within the regulations as they stand.  If the "stay at home and save lives" camp think they are wrong to do this, then it is perhaps the law that is wrong, not the people who are trying to interpret it.

 

For many years till recently (It had shrunk from 14 to 4 pages) the Government issued weekly flu statistics & was noting in the summer that in the Southern Hemisphere Flu was a a very low level possibly due to covis19 precautions. The last I can find was this  https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/923246/National_Influenza_report_1_October_2020_week_40.pdf

Now I can only find the larger version  https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/926213/Weekly_COVID-19_and_Influenza_Surveillance_Graphs_W41_UPDATED.pdf

[finny]

It comes as no surprise that there is anger .the other day whilst stuck at road works I noticed not the school bus but the normal route bus with around a dozen passengers all wearing the masks at the bus stop and by the time I got a green light to go the bus filled up with school teenagers not wearing masks .........perhaps the virus doesn't like entering the bus ??

You couldn't make it up and that was whilst driving through Oldham the covid capital of the world 

Finny

[ChrisB]

This thread has taken me back to the late 60s when I was a Mechanical Engineering student. In those days you also had to study a general, language, modern or social aspect. Most of my fellow grease monkeys bitched but I enjoyed it, as in truth I would have prefered to follow a more academic, arts based career. I just happened to be pretty good at both pure and applied maths plus physics.

I remember thoroughly enjoying two or three lectures and discussion on the inaugural speech to the nation of JFK.  Perhaps it is time to reflect on what he said! As so many workers are giving their all, whilst others are trying to find loopholes in order to fulfill their own agenda.

 

[Meantime]

8 minutes ago, ChrisB said:

As so many workers are giving their all, whilst others are trying to find loopholes in order to fulfill their own agenda.

If people repeat such rhetoric often enough others will start to believe them. I haven't seen any one on this thread look for loopholes in the law. The law is plain on what constitutes the 10 exceptions, or reasonable excuses why you can be away from home. They are not loopholes, but what is written in plain English in the law. You don't have to agree that they should be there and we can debate whether they are correct, whether they should be in the law or not, but one thing is clear, they are not loopholes.

[Maxwellian]

Play nicely please.

[Cheesey69]

Good point but you don’t set the agenda.  
As said by others, it’s your, and wishful thinking, interpretation 

This was never a full lockdown, even if you want it to be. 
no one is finding loopholes, these are exemptions for mental health reasons as been said time and time again 

The mental health of the country is very important and as acknowledged by the government. 
You can only rule by consensus and I’m afraid, if this was a very strict lockdown, I don’t think many would put up with it. 
 

[Ray]

1 hour ago, Meantime said:

If people repeat such rhetoric often enough others will start to believe them. I haven't seen any one on this thread look for loopholes in the law.

To be fair I would like to just point out that Chris did not refer to members in this thread or otherwise but to the population in general and further that in everyday use the term looking for loopholes is generally understood to have a wider meaning of personal exceptions in order to avoid something. This is a discussion not a formal or legal document. The whole tone would be a lot pleasanter if we imagined each comment being said to us over a friendly cuppa beside our moored boats.

[Meantime]

I see the ABI (Association of British Insurers) have felt it necessary to respond to Mr Loophole Nick Freeman's dodgy advice.

Source Nick Freeman

"Anything else is not really acceptable. If you have an accident and can’t prove your journey was essential your ­insurance may be void.”

This warning was also echoed by website USwitch and insurance company Castle, but disputed by the ABI.

Source ABI

"Motor insurers continue to cover those using their vehicle for commuting to work and NHS volunteering without you having to first tell them."

"You should follow Government restrictions, but if you do use your car for non-essential travel, you will not risk invalidating your car insurance.”

Still at least Mr Freeman got some free advertising!

 

 

[Meantime]

Another useful update from the ABI is that those who are now working from home, who would normally work from an office, and therefore may not have declared as such when renewing their home insurance will also be covered without the need to contact their insurer. 

Below are the five pledges that insurance companies have all signed up to over and above their normal insurance commitments. They have been extended until 31st December.

Full details of the current pledges made by home and motor insurers: 

Support those who need to make a claim. Insurers have implemented business continuity plans and work closely with service providers to do everything possible in these challenging circumstances to continue to handle claims and support their customers. We recognise there will be many customers who will need additional support and insurers will prioritise those in vulnerable circumstances. 

Support those who are working from home. If you are an office-based worker and are working from home as a result of the pandemic, your home insurance cover will not be affected. You do not need to contact your insurer to update your documents or extend your cover. 

Support those who cannot work from home. If you have to drive to your workplace because of the impact of Covid-19, your insurance policy will not be affected. You do not need to contact your insurer to update your documents or extend your cover. 

Support those who use their cars to help their communities. If you are using your own car for voluntary purposes to transport medicines or groceries to support others who are impacted by Covid-19, your cover will not be affected. You do not need to contact your insurer to update your documents or extend your cover. This applies to all categories of NHS Volunteer Responders, including transporting patients, equipment, or other essential supplies. 

Support our key workers. If your work is critical to the national response to Covid-19 and you need to use your own car to drive to different locations for work purposes because of the impact of Covid-19, your cover will not be affected. You do not need to contact your insurer to update your documents or extend your cover. 

[FairTmiddlin]

You may insured. But you may get a fine if your journey is non essential

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/number-of-second-lockdown-norfolk-fines-revealed-1-6927464?fbclid=IwAR1LCF0knfTbeXBJhbAo_ZzsVnrc7hkEyFjus5plKWHfNUZ2frT6UQXQM00

[Meantime]

17 minutes ago, FairTmiddlin said:

You may insured. But you may get a fine if your journey is non essential

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/number-of-second-lockdown-norfolk-fines-revealed-1-6927464?fbclid=IwAR1LCF0knfTbeXBJhbAo_ZzsVnrc7hkEyFjus5plKWHfNUZ2frT6UQXQM00

If you read deeper into that story five people were fined for being in the same car, therefore breaking the rules on not mixing households indoors or outdoors and rightly so. There is no limit in the Bill on how far you can go, or the mode of transport to take exercise or recreation providing you are meeting all the other rules on mixing of households etc.

 

[Paul]

1 hour ago, Meantime said:

If you read deeper into that story five people were fined for being in the same car, therefore breaking the rules on not mixing households indoors or outdoors and rightly so. There is no limit in the Bill on how far you can go, or the mode of transport to take exercise or recreation providing you are meeting all the other rules on mixing of households etc.

 

that isn't confirmed in the report, do you know more than is printed, or making an assumption. They could be five people from one household making a non essential journey. 

[Cheesey69]

1 hour ago, Meantime said:

If you read deeper into that story five people were fined for being in the same car, therefore breaking the rules on not mixing households indoors or outdoors and rightly so. There is no limit in the Bill on how far you can go, or the mode of transport to take exercise or recreation providing you are meeting all the other rules on mixing of households etc.

 

Another example of seeing what you want in a story. 
Story here of people having a go at a blind person for not social distancing and not waiting their turn in queue because guide dog trained  to take her to the shops entrance. 
Beware of going too far the other way

[Cheesey69]

4 minutes ago, Paul said:

that isn't confirmed in the report, do you know more than is printed, or making an assumption. They could be five people from one household making a non essential journey. 

They may be fined it’s up to the magistrate to confirm it. 
appeal it. 
sure I’ve read somewhere the backlog is growing and I would like to know the success rate is

[Paul]

4 minutes ago, Cheesey69 said:

They may be fined it’s up to the magistrate to confirm it. 
appeal it. 
sure I’ve read somewhere the backlog is growing and I would like to know the success rate is

A magistrate doesn't have to confirm the fine, it's a fixed penalty. You can appeal it to a magistrate's court if you feel you have a valid reason to be breaking the law under which it was issued. In that respect I imagine the success rate will be very low.

 

[Meantime]

48 minutes ago, Paul said:

that isn't confirmed in the report, do you know more than is printed, or making an assumption. They could be five people from one household making a non essential journey. 

From the report,

"Temporary assistant chief constable Julie Wvendth said the 10 fixed penalty notices (FPN) included half to those in the car.

One of the notices was given to someone who refused to wear a face covering and the other four to those who had gone to other people’s houses in breach of the rules.

T/ACC Wvendth said the fines ranged from £100 or £200 per person and were mainly Norwich-focused, adding: “While there’s been general compliance and we’re really pleased with the way the public have adhered to the regulations there’s still something of a lack of understanding that actually they cannot mix with other people indoors or outdoors.”

Half of the ten notices went to the people in the car. Since it is not illegal to travel with your immediate household to exercise, or for recreation and there is no distance limit specified in the Bill, there must be another valid reason for issuing the notices. Then we have the comment later on in the report which I have highlighted in bold. So do you think all five were fined for non essential travel, or for not being from the same household?

Tomorrow I am driving 20 miles to meet a friend at a country park and go for a walk. The same friend often joins me on the boat, and we take it in turns to drive there. Tomorrow I shall be meeting him at the country park because we are not from the same household or support bubble, despite the fact that I shall be virtually driving past his house to get to the country park. Are there closer places I could walk? yes, but the regulations do not state that I must use the closest outside space, or a maximum distance I am allowed to travel. The website for the country park states that the activity centre will be closed, but the grounds will be fully open. Both the website for the park and Essex County Council state the same.

I am sure there will be some on this forum who will frown upon this non essential activity. To be honest I'm beyond caring. I am travelling separately to meet one other person not in my household or support bubble for a socially distanced walk outside. Some on here might consider it non essential travel. I consider it good for my health and mental well being. I will not be breaking any of the regulations in the Bill or putting myself or anyone else at risk. It is far more dangerous to go shopping in my local supermarket. 

[rightsaidfred]

I can so I will, I dont need to so I wont, heads you win tails I loose.

Fred

[Ray]

I have just written and then deleted 3 or 4 posts.

Every time I realised exactly what those who disagree might say and tried to include answers to the perfectly legitimate counter viewpoints.

But now I wonder if anyone, not just here, has ever actually changed their opinion substantially based on someone else's opinion?

There are no "bad" people here, we all bring personal experience to our decisions and do our best.

So, whatever any of us are doing just carry on keeping safe and keeping others safe the best way you decide how.

Good night 🍺

[Gracie]

6 hours ago, Ray said:

 

So, whatever any of us are doing just carry on keeping safe and keeping others safe the best way you decide how.

Good night 🍺

Well said and everything in a nutshell in that one sentence. Face, hands, distance, think of others. My children are growing up in a new world unfortunately. They've adjusted well, I hope, so will we x

[MauriceMynah]

6 hours ago, Ray said:

I have just written and then deleted 3 or 4 posts.

Oh the number of times I've done THAT!

6 hours ago, Ray said:

Every time I realised exactly what those who disagree might say and tried to include answers to the perfectly legitimate counter viewpoints.

Yep, that's one reason. Another is the when I'm typing a post, and other replies are coming in so fast I lose touch with what I'm trying to say!

 

6 hours ago, Ray said:

But now I wonder if anyone, not just here, has ever actually changed their opinion substantially based on someone else's opinion?

Yes, I have, often. I hear another's opinion, weigh it up against my own and keep or change my views accordingly. I would say that not to do this, is a sign of arrogance even greater than my own. (and that's pretty great.)

 

7 hours ago, Ray said:

So, whatever any of us are doing just carry on keeping safe and keeping others safe the best way you decide how.

Seconded.

 

I couldn't give you 4 'likes'  so I posted it this way.

[MauriceMynah]

11 minutes ago, Gracie said:

My children are growing up in a new world unfortunately. They've adjusted well, I hope, so will we x

I love that sentence for two reasons. Mainly because it epitomises todays situation but secondly it also shows the importance of correct punctuation.

Very few always get it right, but this is aimed generally at people who say it doesn't matter at all.

Grace's sentence wrongly punctuated could read...

"My children are growing up in a new world. Unfortunately they've adjusted. Well I hope so! Will we? x

[finny]

 Good post ray .

"Out of every disaster there is an opportunity " to be exploited .the NHS was always going to be a vote winner and I think we are witnessing a new way in harvesting public finances off it's back  track and trace being one of many failed cash cows but that for the sake of the forum is only my opinion. 

People naturally will judge this virus and its effects inwardly based and there are many sufferers  .mental health and secondary illness figures being up there to name a few . Our grandchildren will still be paying the paymaster for this when many of us here have gone and I fear some business and jobs will never recover.

If you get this virus and recover then I guess to many then its just the normal flu  but here lies the problem there is a very nasty side to this normal flu that takes the weak and vulnerable out so I guess people will make assumptions based on their own experience or at least experience so far 

Just for the doubters or conspiracy theorists my daughter caught this virus first time spike and transpired nothing more than a mild cold .its not the case second time she is really poorly struggling to breathe .she is 34 fit and extremely healthy her job is in environmental health currently educating or enforcing business that wont comply in the name of public safety .I could go but I wont 

Anyway let's get back to the more important" The marina gates are locked " 

 

Finny

[Cheesey69]

“When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?”

Great quote said someone long dead. 

[Meantime]

A few pictures from today's walk. Definitely safer than my local supermarket. Certainly blew the cobwebs away.

[Paul]

On 13/11/2020 at 20:07, Meantime said:

Are there closer places I could walk? yes, but the regulations do not state that I must use the closest outside space, or a maximum distance I am allowed to travel.

The .GOV website states .....

to spend time or exercise outdoors - this should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel to do so if necessary (for example, to access an open space).

I cannot think of anywhere in the UK, even in central London which is twenty miles from a green space. 

The wording and intent of the current restrictions are, I believe much clearer than those written for the first lock down. They are not in any way ambiguous and are designed to protect us all. I am afraid it is people who decide that these rules do not apply to them who are the main reason this new lock down was necessary and why we are facing a Christmas with restrictions on who we can be with, how many may celebrate together etc.