A Bargain?

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, CambridgeCabby said:

If it were financially advantageous I’m in no doubt they would already exist .

Perhaps I didn't explain that there is a premium added to one way cruises to cover the extra admin involved.  It's not a lot and it certainly doesn't put people off as it was a mainstay of our business!

As to staff costs, it costs the same to turn round a hire boat whether it is in Wroxham or Brundall.  If you have 10 boats turning round in Brundall, that is 10 less that need turning round on the main yard in Wroxham.  So you distribute your staff accordingly.  It is just a matter of logistics.

In other words - management.

[Vaughan]

3 hours ago, CambridgeCabby said:

The trouble , as I see it , with one way cruising breaks is two fold , firstly the appropriate crossing Breydon water times are not always feasible

I really don't want to sound flippant here but this sounds as though it might be too much trouble so we had better not risk it.  I fear that this is exactly what may have been happening over the last 30 years, which has prevented the average boatyard from "thinking out of the box".

Frankly, the river through Yarmouth Yacht Station is not the Straights of Magellan.  In one week (only one way) there will always be a window of opportunity to cross Breydon.  If not, all the yards would have been missing boats on a Saturday morning for "donkey's years".  It just needs a bit of planning on a tide table, which can, of course, be covered on the trial run.

Between our bases on the Midi of Port Cassafieres and Castelnaudary is almost two and a half hours drive by road in the high season.  For the boats, it is a cruise of 157km, 35 hours of navigation with the passage of 64 locks.  You have to work quite hard to do that in a week but they all made it - I don't think we ever lost one down the canal.  Unless they had a breakdown, of course.

The direct passage, with the right tides, between Wroxham and Brundall can be done in a day.  The rest of the week is your own, to go where you want.  That is the beauty of the Broads  compared to other waterways.

It's no good thinking it would be too difficult - it's not!   I have been running one way cruises on all sorts of waterways for over 20 years.  It's easy!  Whats' more, the Broads would be the easiest.  It's only half an hour's drive between the bases!

 

 

[CambridgeCabby]

I agree it isn’t difficult , but it takes forward thinking and planning  , something many find taxing at the best of times 

[Broads01]

Thanks for these contributions, Vaughan, you've certainly sold one-way hires as more feasible than I'd realised. I agree Breydon passage is always possible given sufficient daylight hours. 

Perhaps it takes one of the major operators to stick their necks out and take a calculated risk, at least on a small scale basis initially. I think the pay off could be an enticing USP which would differentiate them from their competitors. 

[Bikertov]

Here is an idea ... extend the concept of one way hiring to the privateer market !

If a marina owner had moorings both north and south, could there be flexibility on where you leave your privately owned boat moored ? Maybe it would need some coordination or pre-booking, on a limited number of moorings, but surely it is feasible. 

So you could come up for a week to your boat on the northern mooring, take it south and then leave it there till your next visit.

A quick shuttle bus or taxi trip back to the other mooring to pick up your car and home you go. Even if there was a small premium to pay, you would save time and fuel of the return cruise and get it more variety in your visit, in the same way as a hirer on a one-way trip.

Am I right in thinking @C.Ricko has a yard and moorings both sides - maybe something for you to think about !

[Turnoar]

58 minutes ago, Bikertov said:

A quick shuttle bus or taxi trip back to the other mooring to pick up your car and home you go.

Maybe let the train take the strain and/or take the bus and avoid the fuss?

[LondonRascal]

On 19/08/2023 at 09:22, rightsaidfred said:

I have to disagree with that, I have spoken to many first timers over the years who thought they were coming to a NP only to go away totally disappointed as to them there was nothing remotely resembling a NP during a boating holiday on the Broads.

While the fishing and wildlife are a major part of the broads experience they are available country wide, the diversity in landscape, sights to see places to visit etc normally associated with a NP are widespread in Norfolk and Suffolk they are away from the Broads.

Personally my own interpretation of the use of the NP status for marketing by both the BA and hire yards has done far more harm than good,  I am also inclined to think the claim by the BA during the court case was purely a back door means to gain permission to enable it to follow an agenda.

Fred

I just caught up on this, and I should have made my point more clear - when I said

"Yes it was, and to be honest, it has been used to good effect - you'd never know the area was not a bona fide National Park, and for the sort of people that this would mean something to (and visit because of the connotations of what a National Park is) is been great."

I meant in terms of marketing, and if you limit it to this alone, it has worked well, that you would (unless did not know any different) think the are was a National Park. So people who might be so inclined to visit an area (or book a holiday in the area) based on being a National Park have already come - some might not return so readily due to the area not fitting with what they believe a National Park to be, or having found out they were 'mislead' from the start that is is not actually one anyway!

But in terms of attracting people and keeping them, the National Park branding has done its job - there are only so many people in the country that a 'National Park means something to, far more just think the word means it is going to be extra petty/special and a lot more would have no idea what the term relates to. I think a more universal brand works more like the old 'Britain's Magical Waterland'.

[rightsaidfred]

2 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

I just caught up on this, and I should have made my point more clear - when I said

"Yes it was, and to be honest, it has been used to good effect - you'd never know the area was not a bona fide National Park, and for the sort of people that this would mean something to (and visit because of the connotations of what a National Park is) is been great."

I meant in terms of marketing, and if you limit it to this alone, it has worked well, that you would (unless did not know any different) think the are was a National Park. So people who might be so inclined to visit an area (or book a holiday in the area) based on being a National Park have already come - some might not return so readily due to the area not fitting with what they believe a National Park to be, or having found out they were 'mislead' from the start that is is not actually one anyway!

But in terms of attracting people and keeping them, the National Park branding has done its job - there are only so many people in the country that a 'National Park means something to, far more just think the word means it is going to be extra petty/special and a lot more would have no idea what the term relates to. I think a more universal brand works more like the old 'Britain's Magical Waterland'.

Sorry Robin you obviously live in a different world, it does not fit the perception of a National Park in any shape or form and that is the feed back I have received from disillusioned holiday makers, as defined by the BAs own designated boundaries it is first and foremost a navigation, yes there are two other main considerations within the Broads Act both of which rely on a healthy and thriving waterway.

It is also fact that the BA are not a marketing board, their remit is to provide and maintain an environment including facilities that makes the area attractive to visitors and locals alike including one that supports a healthy business community,  DEFRA has made it quite clear the Broads are not a NP and misleading the general public by calling it one helps nobody especially when that is detracting from the real problems of the decline in public moorings etc that are putting people off returning.

Fred

[LondonRascal]

1 hour ago, rightsaidfred said:

Sorry Robin you obviously live in a different world, it does not fit the perception of a National Park in any shape or form and that is the feed back I have received from disillusioned holiday makers, as defined by the BAs own designated boundaries it is first and foremost a navigation, yes there are two other main considerations within the Broads Act both of which rely on a healthy and thriving waterway.

It is also fact that the BA are not a marketing board, their remit is to provide and maintain an environment including facilities that makes the area attractive to visitors and locals alike including one that supports a healthy business community,  DEFRA has made it quite clear the Broads are not a NP and misleading the general public by calling it one helps nobody especially when that is detracting from the real problems of the decline in public moorings etc that are putting people off returning.

Fred

No, I live in the real world alright, just not worried about what names are given to areas I love and not getting myself tangled down with banging a drum increasingly only being heard by a few of how it should not be called such.

It has indeed worked (as a brand) and some may say even more than this - from mapping companies, news organisation's and average citizens, people now assume the area is a National Park. You must accept this to be the case, and this has all happened through saying somewhere is - and others following along with it. People don't want to be bogged down in the small print and truth, it is why miss-information is so easy to spread and why factual information so hard to make any traction. I am sure you dislike this state of affairs, but think of the other side of the coin - these people you have received feedback from (I know not what capacity you work to have sought such feedback, for all I know you just have asked people in the area yourself).  You say they are disillusioned and previously said "I have to disagree with that, I have spoken to many first timers over the years who thought they were coming to a NP only to go away totally disappointed as to them there was nothing remotely resembling a NP during a boating holiday on the Broads." and so this to me justifies expansion to become a legal National Park - for these disappointed and disillusioned tourists would no longer feel duped and no longer be disappointed. See how you can spin something to be seen another way?

We are talking about rejuvenation of an area and industry which, is currently clearly on the slide. Now you and others can take point to the name it is given, and the remit of an authority set up primarily to manage navigation - but I and many others like me who visit the area don't care about that. We care about where we can go, what there is to do when we get there, how easy it is to moor up, and how much things cost and backing up all this is the service we get from the businesses we choose to use. The old trusted customer base is falling away, a new one needs finding and encouraging and the area needs new activities and interest past the natural environment and old draws like a riverside Pub. The fight agaisnt the name 'National Park' is lost. The fight to reform the Broads Authority is wavering too - time to put these both to one side and concentrate on new tourists coming and spending - without that it is all lost!

[rightsaidfred]

Robin I  am just a boat owner who has been coming to the Broads for 40 years and who talks to others many of whom are first time boaters.

A lie is still a lie don't matter how many times it is repeated and by whom, you yourself admit this is how misinformation is spread.

As for regeneration we all want the Broads to prosper, the difference is many of us realise the decline started back in the last centuary along with the rest of this country's holiday industry not the last few years, if you want to retain the newcomers and first timers as future stalwarts you do it by providing the holiday they can afford and the amenities they need to enjoy it that brings them back not by trying to sell them something that dosnt exist.

It's become a sad fact these days that far to many are prepared to accept anything in the media regardless of its accuracy or truth and no one is supposed or allowed to challenge it, this is part of whats the ills of today's society.

Fred

[C.Ricko]

I do offer any one of my mooring customers temporary moorings who ask for them in either Brundall or Horning. 
as for one way cruising people want to plan their holidays and not knowing the start point is a problem in most cases, it would be ok if you could rely on a full season but gaps make it hard, also logistics, it’s easier in Norfolk as nowhere is far by road but the last people to offer it was Leboat between sommerleyton snd Horning and It wasn’t successful the southern yard dealt with about 4 boats and wasn’t set up to deal with the turnaround, finding staff who are willing to travel off site to work is getting harder as is the ability to find good team members. 
there is no such thing as minimum wage on a boatyard and not many people want to do weekends whatever the overtime rate is.. 

this is why although we have weekends covered we only turn boats round on Mondays and Fridays.. 

 

 

 

[marshman]

I wondered who would be the first to remember that the one way cruising had been tried, unsuccessfully, before!!!!

[floydraser]

11 hours ago, rightsaidfred said:

Sorry Robin you obviously live in a different world, it does not fit the perception of a National Park in any shape or form and that is the feed back I have received from disillusioned holiday makers, as defined by the BAs own designated boundaries it is first and foremost a navigation, yes there are two other main considerations within the Broads Act both of which rely on a healthy and thriving waterway.

It is also fact that the BA are not a marketing board, their remit is to provide and maintain an environment including facilities that makes the area attractive to visitors and locals alike including one that supports a healthy business community,  DEFRA has made it quite clear the Broads are not a NP and misleading the general public by calling it one helps nobody especially when that is detracting from the real problems of the decline in public moorings etc that are putting people off returning.

Fred

I think jist of what Robin means is what I have said before on here: to someone who has never had a holiday on the Broads, the National Park title is an attraction. Look at all the other NPs and they are all attractive places to go, so why wouldn't the Broads be? Strangers have no idea about the politics of how it's administered and probably care even less. A lot of businesses use the NP reference in their marketing too.

[Vaughan]

17 minutes ago, marshman said:

I wondered who would be the first to remember that the one way cruising had been tried, unsuccessfully, before!!!!

But only by Le Boat.

I won't say more than that . . .    

[rightsaidfred]

16 minutes ago, marshman said:

I wondered who would be the first to remember that the one way cruising had been tried, unsuccessfully, before!!!!

Yes both the Broads and Thames, what seems to be missed by some is that a boating holiday here or elsewhere is only attractive to a limited number of people more so nowadays with the variety of options available.

While making people aware of the existence of the Broads and the quality experience they offer is important retaining those that have tried it is the more valuable way forward, this can only be achieved by offering value for money and adequate facilities, not by ripping them off with mooring charges etc or promising what doesn't  exist.

Fred

[grendel]

the first of the broads cruiser on the thames videos came out at the weekend, by both Lorna James Adventures and cruising the cut, after hearing them mention the number of locks i did suggest a week on the broads which had no locks.

[Roy]

3 hours ago, C.Ricko said:

I do offer any one of my mooring customers temporary moorings who ask for them in either Brundall or Horning. 
as for one way cruising people want to plan their holidays and not knowing the start point is a problem in most cases, it would be ok if you could rely on a full season but gaps make it hard, also logistics, it’s easier in Norfolk as nowhere is far by road but the last people to offer it was Leboat between sommerleyton snd Horning and It wasn’t successful the southern yard dealt with about 4 boats and wasn’t set up to deal with the turnaround, finding staff who are willing to travel off site to work is getting harder as is the ability to find good team members. 
there is no such thing as minimum wage on a boatyard and not many people want to do weekends whatever the overtime rate is.. 

this is why although we have weekends covered we only turn boats round on Mondays and Fridays.. 

 

 

 

Thanks Clive for pointing out some of the pitfalls I’d not thought if a boat was not fully booked the boat would not be in the right location. 

Im thankful I don’t employ people my business is just me. I can imagine people don’t want to work weekends that’s the reason I started working for my self. 

 

[ScrumpyCheddar]

11 hours ago, C.Ricko said:

I do offer any one of my mooring customers temporary moorings who ask for them in either Brundall or Horning. 
as for one way cruising people want to plan their holidays and not knowing the start point is a problem in most cases, it would be ok if you could rely on a full season but gaps make it hard, also logistics, it’s easier in Norfolk as nowhere is far by road but the last people to offer it was Leboat between sommerleyton snd Horning and It wasn’t successful the southern yard dealt with about 4 boats and wasn’t set up to deal with the turnaround, finding staff who are willing to travel off site to work is getting harder as is the ability to find good team members. 
there is no such thing as minimum wage on a boatyard and not many people want to do weekends whatever the overtime rate is.. 

this is why although we have weekends covered we only turn boats round on Mondays and Fridays.. 

 

 

 

So Clive the big Question is would you base any boats south and run a southern yard. I for one would definitely be a customer and many more ex silverline customers to 👍

[Dolphin]

I was in Herbert Woods Boatyard on the day that the discount was announced. There were in excess of 25 boats sitting around not hired out. There were some which hadn’t been out for at least two weeks. (HW put a post it note with the day it was cleaned in the back window). The staff said that it had been dead all season and they were worried. 
 

Also noted was the huge number of boats sitting in Richos yard, Barnes Brinkcraft and NBD. Ferry Marina had a few in too. In fact the only yard with all their boats out was Bridegcraft. I know they are only a small yard but %age wise - they were smashing it. 

[Wussername]

6 minutes ago, Dolphin said:

I was in Herbert Woods Boatyard on the day that the discount was announced. There were in excess of 25 boats sitting around not hired out. There were some which hadn’t been out for at least two weeks. (HW put a post it note with the day it was cleaned in the back window). The staff said that it had been dead all season and they were worried. 
 

Also noted was the huge number of boats sitting in Richos yard, Barnes Brinkcraft and NBD. Ferry Marina had a few in too. In fact the only yard with all their boats out was Bridegcraft. I know they are only a small yard but %age wise - they were smashing it. 

Difficult times for us all and I am sure that the boatyards are experiencing a degree of customer resistance. Disposable income is at a premium for many, and will be for many months to come. In this respect the hire industry will adjust accordingly as indeed many seasonal service industries have done in the past. Some will have contingency plans in place.

Some will speculate, with thoughts of doom and gloom. 

There will be a light at the end of the tunnel, once we have found it! 

[Vaughan]

10 hours ago, Wussername said:

Some will speculate, with thoughts of doom and gloom. 

That would include me, then.

 

22 hours ago, C.Ricko said:

finding staff who are willing to travel off site to work is getting harder as is the ability to find good team members. 
there is no such thing as minimum wage on a boatyard and not many people want to do weekends whatever the overtime rate is.. 

this is why although we have weekends covered we only turn boats round on Mondays and Fridays.. 

I haven't commented on what Clive has told us until now, as I found it quite stunning.

What on earth can this mean for the future?  We are in the holiday business!  That means when everyone else is on holiday, you are at work, to serve them.  That's the way the "cookie crumbles".  I can honestly say that in all my years in the job I have never missed a Saturday at work in the summer season, not even as a boy, still at school.  On all the yards I have worked for and managed I have been at work 7 days a week and on call 24hrs, for 6 months of the hiring season.  You take your own holidays in the winter!

That's the Job!  It's also what gives such great satisfaction when you do a good job and give customers a good holiday.  In other words, it is a passion.  If you don't like that, go and do something easier.

If a yard now has to stop hiring on Saturdays because the staff don't want to work weekends, I wonder how that stacks up with all the theories that tourism brings income and jobs to the Broads.  What is the point of promoting that, if the local people don't want to do the jobs? 

I find this quite exasperating.  It really makes me wonder if all our efforts to try and bring more customers to the Broads are actually worth it, if the local people can't even be bothered to make a bit of effort.

[rightsaidfred]

45 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

That would include me, then.

 

I haven't commented on what Clive has told us until now, as I found it quite stunning.

What on earth can this mean for the future?  We are in the holiday business!  That means when everyone else is on holiday, you are at work, to serve them.  That's the way the "cookie crumbles".  I can honestly say that in all my years in the job I have never missed a Saturday at work in the summer season, not even as a boy, still at school.  On all the yards I have worked for and managed I have been at work 7 days a week and on call 24hrs, for 6 months of the hiring season.  You take your own holidays in the winter!

That's the Job!  It's also what gives such great satisfaction when you do a good job and give customers a good holiday.  In other words, it is a passion.  If you don't like that, go and do something easier.

If a yard now has to stop hiring on Saturdays because the staff don't want to work weekends, I wonder how that stacks up with all the theories that tourism brings income and jobs to the Broads.  What is the point of promoting that, if the local people don't want to do the jobs? 

I find this quite exasperating.  It really makes me wonder if all our efforts to try and bring more customers to the Broads are actually worth it, if the local people can't even be bothered to make a bit of effort.

That is one of todays problems with a lot of this country and dosn`t just apply to the Broads or Leisure Industry's, peoples expectations have altered a lot in the last few years and you only have to look at the nationalities of the majority of those doing the more menial or unsocial hours jobs be it pubs and restaurants, deliveries or other service industries to see this.

Fred 

[Ray]

Hard work for minimum wage and/or zero hour contracts wouldn't have appealed to our generation either. The workplace has changed, they create the workforce they deserve.

I mean this in general as Fred understandably widens the context, not to any individual Broadland Business.

[C.Ricko]

47 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

That would include me, then.

 

I haven't commented on what Clive has told us until now, as I found it quite stunning.

What on earth can this mean for the future?  We are in the holiday business!  That means when everyone else is on holiday, you are at work, to serve them.  That's the way the "cookie crumbles".  I can honestly say that in all my years in the job I have never missed a Saturday at work in the summer season, not even as a boy, still at school.  On all the yards I have worked for and managed I have been at work 7 days a week and on call 24hrs, for 6 months of the hiring season.  You take your own holidays in the winter!

That's the Job!  It's also what gives such great satisfaction when you do a good job and give customers a good holiday.  In other words, it is a passion.  If you don't like that, go and do something easier.

If a yard now has to stop hiring on Saturdays because the staff don't want to work weekends, I wonder how that stacks up with all the theories that tourism brings income and jobs to the Broads.  What is the point of promoting that, if the local people don't want to do the jobs? 

I find this quite exasperating.  It really makes me wonder if all our efforts to try and bring more customers to the Broads are actually worth it, if the local people can't even be bothered to make a bit of effort.

I wouldn't say its a lack of a bit of effort, Id say its quite an undertaking to grow a hire fleet these days, Its just a personal choice, our fleet is not a chore to run, its a quarter of what we do but it still needs to work for my work /life balance and I don't ask my team to do anything i would not be prepared to do, perhaps this is why so many family operated boatyards don't have the interest from the 'next generation'. I have heard too many people say about working all weekends and  holidays and missing their kids grow up, if people want to work Saturdays or have a Saturday as a start day then there are other yards which turn boats round on Saturdays, we don't need to.  We pay overtime rates at time +1/2 and double time as well as double time and a day in lieu on bank holidays.  I don't think any other yard does this for new starters, BUT it seems to work ok for us as we are busy, we have increased from 3 boats to 9 in 2 years and have a relatively busy season, 

Things change and I am happy to adapt and change with them as long as it works for me and the team, despite being there every day I don't involve myself with the day to day but I can have the weekends off happy in the knowledge that the team is getting a break too. Fridays and Mondays are the busiest turnaround days so I'll stick to them, historically Saturdays were busy (and sometimes the only option) but alas the game has changed. 

We were out on the southern rivers at the weekend  (we were asked to leave Waters Edge Brammerton) it was lovely down there but I wouldn't start up a new fleet as boats book better on the northern rivers. 

[Ray]

3 minutes ago, C.Ricko said:

I wouldn't say its a lack of a bit of effort, Id say its quite an undertaking to grow a hire fleet these days, Its just a personal choice, our fleet is not a chore to run, its a quarter of what we do but it still needs to work for my work /life balance and I don't ask my team to do anything i would not be prepared to do, perhaps this is why so many family operated boatyards don't have the interest from the 'next generation'. I have heard too many people say about working all weekends and  holidays and missing their kids grow up, if people want to work Saturdays or have a Saturday as a start day then there are other yards which turn boats round on Saturdays, we don't need to.  We pay overtime rates at time +1/2 and double time as well as double time and a day in lieu on bank holidays.  I don't think any other yard does this for new starters, BUT it seems to work ok for us as we are busy, we have increased from 3 boats to 9 in 2 years and have a relatively busy season, 

Things change and I am happy to adapt and change with them as long as it works for me and the team, despite being there every day I don't involve myself with the day to day but I can have the weekends off happy in the knowledge that the team is getting a break too. Fridays and Mondays are the busiest turnaround days so I'll stick to them, historically Saturdays were busy (and sometimes the only option) but alas the game has changed. 

We were out on the southern rivers at the weekend  (we were asked to leave Waters Edge Brammerton) it was lovely down there but I wouldn't start up a new fleet as boats book better on the northern rivers. 

Proof that as I said above, my comments were not aimed at individual Broads Businesses