Hire Fleet Changes 2024

[Broads01]

13 hours ago, C.Ricko said:

Phoenix told me Yesterday that they took 1 hire boat through the bridge this year so id say its specifically Wroxham bridge which is the focus when looking to hire a low air draft boat on the Northern broads.. 

One hireboat this year, that's mind-blowing. What the hell has happened since the days it seemed everyone with a low enough air draft could pass through? The last time I managed passage through Potter was 2013. That seems a like a very distant memory.

[C.Ricko]

19 hours ago, floydraser said:

Lovely boat!  I'm looking forward to seeing the inside. Did you have a hand in the design?

Yes, basically the whole thing with the boat building team. 

[Dan]

On 18/11/2023 at 10:41, C.Ricko said:

new addition from the Broads leading innovator in hire boat development 

https://broadshols.co.uk/boats/fleetline/

 

the pricing and calendar will be on there next week

Looks smart Clive

Is that varnished interior or just some very fancy laminate?! 

Dan

[PaulN]

On 18/11/2023 at 10:41, C.Ricko said:

new addition from the Broads leading innovator in hire boat development 

https://broadshols.co.uk/boats/fleetline/

 

the pricing and calendar will be on there next week

Looks fabulous Clive, what a Hire Craft!

[BrundallNavy]

Bit confused that the max party is 6 where the transom decal says 8. 

[vanessan]

2 hours ago, BrundallNavy said:

Bit confused that the max party is 6 where the transom decal says 8. 

I’ve always understood that the number on the transom is the maximum number of passengers allowed on the vessel. Presumably the max party is the number of ‘sleepers’ allowed in the hire party. That may all be a load of twaddle of course, no doubt someone will confirm. 

[AndyTBoater]

I have been told that the number refers to the quantity of boats in that class/style

So you could have 8 boats, all with the same reg number - just a different suffix

This could all be something I made up though. 

[grendel]

on a hire boat, the number after the registration is the maximum number of people allowed onboard, the number of people allowed in the hire party will reflect the number of berths aboard. so here you are allowed 6 in the party, but you could have 2 guests aboard for a day cruise. (would also be a factor on the trial run 6 crew plus 1 staff member)

[Smoggy]

I've always believed it was the max number of people permitted on board.

Your turn to beat me this time Mr.G.

[Happy]

16 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

I've always believed it was the max number of people permitted on board.

Your turn to beat me this time Mr.G.

How strange.  A bloody great boat like that and you are allowed more on a picnic boat! 

[Meantime]

My understanding is that the last number after the dash is the maximum number of people allowed to be onboard the boat. This is determined by the lower of the following two numbers;

1. The maximum amount of people the boat's stability tests have shown the boat can safely cope with. Generally used in the case of picnic or day boats.

2. The maximum amount of people the hire yard want on board any particular boat. This can largely be based around the number of berths onboard, but also to stop people picking up down the river once away from the yard, especially on Premium boats.

[oldgregg]

8 hours ago, AndyTBoater said:

I have been told that the number refers to the quantity of boats in that class/style

So you could have 8 boats, all with the same reg number - just a different suffix

This could all be something I made up though. 

They'll usually have a number within the fleet (ie Major Gem 2), but that won't be reflected in the reg.

So in that instance she might show F866-8 on the transom, meaning she's F866 and can have 8 aboard.

[Wussername]

4 hours ago, Meantime said:

My understanding is that the last number after the dash is the maximum number of people allowed to be onboard the boat. This is determined by the lower of the following two numbers;

1. The maximum amount of people the boat's stability tests have shown the boat can safely cope with. Generally used in the case of picnic or day boats.

2. The maximum amount of people the hire yard want on board any particular boat. This can largely be based around the number of berths onboard, but also to stop people picking up down the river once away from the yard, especially on Premium boats.

It has always been my understanding that the number of berths is irrelevant. The stability test of the craft is most important as required after a day boat capsized with a tragic loss of life several years ago.

Some so called picnic boats have been allowed to carry ten people. Amazing for such a small craft, even more so when you consider that an individual can pitch up, with no experience, and venture off into the unknown having never helmed a boat in his life.  

As for hire cruisers, if my memory serves me correctly, there is a limit. Ten people, or is it twelve including the helm, thereafter a captains certificate is required.

That leads me to another question.  Who is in charge, responsible, has authority of a hire boat? Or indeed a private boat.

The owner, the skipper, the captain, the master, the hirer, the helm.

As a trial run driver for many years I have signed off many holiday makers. Some I have refused. Some with a heavy heart, some with no compunction whatsoever.

Old Wussername.

[Meantime]

32 minutes ago, Wussername said:

It has always been my understanding that the number of berths is irrelevant. The stability test of the craft is most important as required after a day boat capsized with a tragic loss of life several years ago.

Some so called picnic boats have been allowed to carry ten people. Amazing for such a small craft, even more so when you consider that an individual can pitch up, with no experience, and venture off into the unknown having never helmed a boat in his life.  

As for hire cruisers, if my memory serves me correctly, there is a limit. Ten people, or is it twelve including the helm, thereafter a captains certificate is required.

That leads me to another question.  Who is in charge, responsible, has authority of a hire boat? Or indeed a private boat.

The owner, the skipper, the captain, the master, the hirer, the helm.

As a trial run driver for many years I have signed off many holiday makers. Some I have refused. Some with a heavy heart, some with no compunction whatsoever.

Old Wussername.

The limit is what the hire boat is licensed for, the number after the dash, which can often be lower than the stability tests would allow. It is the arbitrary decision of the hire yard if they want to choose a lower figure than the stability tests would allow. This prevents more people being on board than the hire yard want, even if the stability tests would allow more.

The maximum figure for a hire boat would be 12. For a private boat there is no upper figure. I queried this with the BA after seeing a private boat underway above Bishops Bridge and counted at least 24 people on board, many standing around the toe rail with drinks in their hand.

[AndyTBoater]

6 hours ago, oldgregg said:

They'll usually have a number within the fleet (ie Major Gem 2), but that won't be reflected in the reg.

So in that instance she might show F866-8 on the transom, meaning she's F866 and can have 8 aboard.

Can't find a pic of one now but will have a look tomorrow. Pretty sure I have seen boats with zxxx-1 or zxxx-2. 

Will get back to you ASAP. Or slightly later than that. 

[RS2021]

11 hours ago, Meantime said:

The maximum figure for a hire boat would be 12. For a private boat there is no upper figure. I queried this with the BA after seeing a private boat underway above Bishops Bridge and counted at least 24 people on board, many standing around the toe rail with drinks in their hand.

I always understood that if a boat (and this does not apply to just the broads) was carrying more then 12 passengers (no mention of how many crew) then it was subject to different regulations to both the crew and boat. e.g. the master must possess an appropriate boat masters certificate and the boat carry enough life saving equipment for all the passengers and crew etc. A bit like you need a different category of driving licence to drive a bus or a HGV.

[Meantime]

1 hour ago, RS2021 said:

I always understood that if a boat (and this does not apply to just the broads) was carrying more then 12 passengers (no mention of how many crew) then it was subject to different regulations to both the crew and boat. e.g. the master must possess an appropriate boat masters certificate and the boat carry enough life saving equipment for all the passengers and crew etc. A bit like you need a different category of driving licence to drive a bus or a HGV.

When I queried that with the BA, that all relates to hire craft, passenger craft or draft used for reward.

It does not apply on the Broads when you have a group of friends onboard your own vessel for no payment. Essentially the safety of the people on board will always rest with the Master of the vessel, but there is no limit to the number you can have on board. How your insurance might view things if there was an incident is a different matter, but the BA or more specifically the safety officer, who I think was Adrian Vernon at that time, said no offence had been committed.

[Meantime]

8 hours ago, AndyTBoater said:

Can't find a pic of one now but will have a look tomorrow. Pretty sure I have seen boats with zxxx-1 or zxxx-2. 

Will get back to you ASAP. Or slightly later than that. 

The registration number, the bit before the - should always be unique for each vessel.

To hire out boats on The Broads you need the following;

1. A hire boat operators license costing £25 and you must abide by the hire boat operators license conditions.

2. A hire boat (vessel) license costing £17 per boat and you must abide by the hire boat (vessel) license conditions.

3. You must also maintain a schedule of hire boats you hire out. For each boat you must list the boat name, reg no, make or class, loading capacity to include the number of persons and weight, and finally the report ref number for the stability test and indicating whether the report is for the class of boat, or for the individual boat.

The loading capacity number is the important one for the next bit. The hire boat vessel license conditions contain the following section;

5. Each vessel is licensed to carry the number of persons indicated against that Vessel in the Schedule.

a. The number of persons that the Vessel is licensed to carry must be conspicuously displayed on the Vessel using a notice or notices provided by the Authority. On any hire boat I have seen, this is the number after the dash, which is after the reg number.

b. A Vessel must not carry any number of persons in excess of that permitted by this License.

So the number after the dash is the licensed number of persons allowed on the boat. It will never be higher than the stability tests would allow, but I'm certain is often lower (at the discretion of the operator) in order to limit the number of people allowed on board. This is why the same class of boat can have different limits on the number of people allowed on board depending on the hire yards wishes. One that stands out is one of the old Swancraft boats with luxury for two on the back, which is limited to two people on board by its license, certainly not by stability testing.

 

[Vaughan]

I can't imagine how we have managed to get a thread about hire fleet changes into so much intimate detail about registration numbers!

 

3 hours ago, RS2021 said:

I always understood that if a boat (and this does not apply to just the broads) was carrying more then 12 passengers (no mention of how many crew)

 

I think the key word here is "fare paying" passengers.  This goes back to the old Board of Trade sea regulations, where a vessel may carry up to 12 passengers.  Beyond that, it becomes a commercial passenger ship and must have lifeboats, handrails, all sorts of other things and must also carry a doctor on board.  So Broads hire boats are always limited to 12 passengers and 2 crew.

Not to forget also that since 1996 all new boats are built to ERCD regs, which specify the number of passengers and the weight of baggage which may be carried.  This is displayed on a CE plaque at the steering position.

 

Here is the Geest Line's lovely old ship Geest Cape (which I have sailed on) shown leaving the Pool of London, upstream of Tower Bridge.  She was a refrigerated banana boat, on a regular run around the islands of the West Indies.

Her luxury accommodation was fitted out for only 12 passengers, in order to avoid the Board of Trade regulations for passenger ships.

[CambridgeCabby]

3 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I can't imagine how we have managed to get a thread about hire fleet changes into so much intimate detail about registration numbers!

 

 

I think the key word here is "fare paying" passengers.  This goes back to the old Board of Trade sea regulations, where a vessel may carry up to 12 passengers.  Beyond that, it becomes a commercial passenger ship and must have lifeboats, handrails, all sorts of other things and must also carry a doctor on board.  So Broads hire boats are always limited to 12 passengers and 2 crew.

Not to forget also that since 1996 all new boats are built to ERCD regs, which specify the number of passengers and the weight of baggage which may be carried.  This is displayed on a CE plaque at the steering position.

 

Here is the Geest Line's lovely old ship Geest Cape (which I have sailed on) shown leaving the Pool of London, upstream of Tower Bridge.  She was a refrigerated banana boat, on a regular run around the islands of the West Indies.

Her luxury accommodation was fitted out for only 12 passengers, in order to avoid the Board of Trade regulations for passenger ships.

My late father had a holiday on the Geest Banana boat , I drove him down to Tilsbury docks in his Jaguar (the only time he let me drive it) , if memory serves me right he was away for about ten weeks .

It was , he often stated, the best holiday he had ever had .

He enjoyed it so much he decided to book a similar (or so he thought) experience onboard a Russian container ship destined for Australia intending to see some of the Olympics whilst it was berthed ; this holiday was a disaster , the Captain/Crew had no interaction with the 8 passengers except to ask for European currency to pay harbour fees as they wouldn’t accept the Russian currency (they claimed) , the bar only opened for one hour a day and was very limited and the food was awful .

it was so bad my father disembarked when they arrived in Australia and flew home having to fly first class due to the Olympics being held in Sydney and no other flights available .

the one positive was that his travel agent was able to recover almost the total cost including the flight after seeing my fathers diary entries and photographs 

[C.Ricko]

Hi,

yes indeed the bulkheads are Varnished! 

 

the -8 is so that the ranger can see at a glance how many people the boat is licensed to carry, this is mainly due to the stability characteristics / down flooding height but also the ventilation for the gas appliances .

we could have more on the boat but we don't want more than 8 on her so that is the max number allowed. the trial run driver is additional.  

[JanetAnne]

16 hours ago, Meantime said:

The registration number, the bit before the - should always be unique for each vessel.

To hire out boats on The Broads you need the following;

1. A hire boat operators license costing £25 and you must abide by the hire boat operators license conditions.

2. A hire boat (vessel) license costing £17 per boat and you must abide by the hire boat (vessel) license conditions.

3. You must also maintain a schedule of hire boats you hire out. For each boat you must list the boat name, reg no, make or class, loading capacity to include the number of persons and weight, and finally the report ref number for the stability test and indicating whether the report is for the class of boat, or for the individual boat.

The loading capacity number is the important one for the next bit. The hire boat vessel license conditions contain the following section;

5. Each vessel is licensed to carry the number of persons indicated against that Vessel in the Schedule.

a. The number of persons that the Vessel is licensed to carry must be conspicuously displayed on the Vessel using a notice or notices provided by the Authority. On any hire boat I have seen, this is the number after the dash, which is after the reg number.

b. A Vessel must not carry any number of persons in excess of that permitted by this License.

So the number after the dash is the licensed number of persons allowed on the boat. It will never be higher than the stability tests would allow, but I'm certain is often lower (at the discretion of the operator) in order to limit the number of people allowed on board. This is why the same class of boat can have different limits on the number of people allowed on board depending on the hire yards wishes. One that stands out is one of the old Swancraft boats with luxury for two on the back, which is limited to two people on board by its license, certainly not by stability testing.

 

Don't forget the British Marine Federation membership and compliance. That's where the real fun begins!

[JanetAnne]

11 hours ago, C.Ricko said:

Hi,

yes indeed the bulkheads are Varnished! 

 

the -8 is so that the ranger can see at a glance how many people the boat is licensed to carry, this is mainly due to the stability characteristics / down flooding height but also the ventilation for the gas appliances .

we could have more on the boat but we don't want more than 8 on her so that is the max number allowed. the trial run driver is additional.  

That's interesting.

Having been through stability testing last year I was very much under the impression that there is no 'additional' wriggle room. If something was to happen, irrespective of whether it was stability related, and the number of people on board, staff or not, exceeded the maximum as displayed, your insurance company might just be able to walk away.

I have had to test to include the trial run staff.

[C.Ricko]

 

13 hours ago, JanetAnne said:

That's interesting.

Having been through stability testing last year I was very much under the impression that there is no 'additional' wriggle room. If something was to happen, irrespective of whether it was stability related, and the number of people on board, staff or not, exceeded the maximum as displayed, your insurance company might just be able to walk away.

I have had to test to include the trial run staff.

I must admit you could be right as I was told this when the previous  tests were being carried out, 

[RS2021]

Just wondering how the number of people aboard applies to boats going under Ludham Bridge when the river is up...